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A fairly accurate, but incomplete INDEX of Posts & good overview of this blog READ SOME REASONS TO REJECT ORTHODOX JUDAISM my April 2014 post or click link above. Highlighted words lead to other posts almost all in my blog. Born into an Orthodox Jewish family (1950's) and went to Orthodox Yeshiva from kindergarten thru High School plus some Beis Medrash.Became an agnostic in my 20's and an atheist later on. My blog will discuss the arguments for god and Orthodox Judaism and will provide counter arguments. I no longer take comments. My blog uses academic sources, the Torah, Talmud and commentators to justify my assertions. The posts get updated. INDEX OF POSTS SEE MAY 2017 or click link above.

Saturday, December 21, 2013

The Science of God - Schroeder Part 3

Updated Thru 1/14/2015

This post continues the discussion of  Part 1 and Part 2 which refuted Schroeder's use of  Rambam’s chapter 7 and Talmud Keliim 8:5 to support Schroeder’s  hypothesis that Pre-Adam Soul-less Humans (Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon) are found in the Torah/Bible and Jewish texts.

Schroeder also cites "Talmud Eruvim 18A", "Rashi's commentary on Genesis 3:6", "Jerusalem Talmud Pea 1:1", and Ramban to support his hypothesis. This post will refute Schroeder use of the first three, saving the last for a future post. 

A) Between the dashed lines is the portion of Talmud - Mas. Erivan 18a-18b. The inter spaced numbers refer to notes on the Talmud text. The Talmud is here discussing  Genesis 5:3 When Adam had lived to 130 years, he begot a son in his likeness after his image and he named him Seth. Schroeder suggests Adam begot with pre Adam Soul-less humans prior to Seth’s birth and cites this Talmudic section as support  (his Page 141 reference #13). 
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R. Jeremiah b. Eleazar further stated: In all those years 25 during which Adam26 was under the ban he begot ghosts and male demons and female demons,27 for it is said in Scripture: And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years and begot a son in his own likeness, after his own image,28 from which it follows that until that time he did not beget after his own image. An objection was raised: R. Meir
said: Adam was a great saint. When he saw that through him death was ordained as a punishment he spent a hundred and thirty years in fasting, severed connection with his wife for a hundred and thirty
years, and wore clothes of fig [leaves] on his body for a hundred and thirty years.29 — That statement30 was made in reference to the semen which he emitted accidentally.

(25) Hundred and thirty years after his expulsion from the Garden of Eden (v. infra).
(26) Lit., ‘the first man’.
(27) Or ‘night demons’.
(28) Gen. V, 3.
(29) How in view of this statement could R. Jeremiah b. Eleazar maintain his?
(30) Of R. Jeremiah

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So is it saying that according to R. Meir - Adam had nocturnal emissions and these gave rise to ghosts and demons ?  Or perhaps it is saying that according to R. Meir no ghosts or demons arose and there was only nocturnal emissions ? 

 Even R. Jeremiah b. Eleazar only says Adam begot ghosts and demons,  not that he had a sexual partner. 

No place in the text does it say Adams had sex with any other beings,  nor Schroeder’s Soul-less Humans,  nor  Souled Humans. Recall Schroeder was using Eruvin to imply Adam had sex with Soul-less Humans, in other words they existed according to the holy texts Schroeder has been citing.

[However there is a midrash  basically  saying  Adam  begot with female demons and Eve begot with male demons. Midrash Rabbah Genesis 20:11]

The Eruvin text only discusses Adam begetting ghost and demons, not Schroeder’s Soul-less Humans (Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal) nor souled and soul-less human hybrids.

Schroeder has claimed Soul-less Human beings are essentially corporeal  human beings but for being soul-less. 

But do ghosts and demons have a human body  ?

Midrash Rabbah Genesis 7:5 Demons may have no body:

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AND GOD MADE THE BEAST OF THE EARTH (I, 25).
R. Hoshaya the Elder said: This means the serpent.
R. tlama b. R. Hoshaya said: In speaking of souls it
enumerates four, but in speaking of bodies only three! 
Rabbi said: This [extra soul] refers to the demons whose
soul the Holy One, blessed be He, created, but when
He came to create their bodies the sanctity of the Sabbath
commenced and He could not create them.
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Also Lilith a she demon has wings:

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Talmud - Mas. Nidah 24b

Rab Judah citing Samuel ruled: If an abortion had the likeness of Lilith26 its mother is unclean by reason of the birth, for it is a child, but it has wings. So it was also taught: R. Jose stated, It once
happened at Simoni27 that a woman aborted the likeness of Lilith, and when the case came up for a decision before the Sages they ruled that it was a child but that it also had wings.


(26) A female demon of the night, reputed to have wings and a human face.
(27) Semunige in Lower Galilee.
(28) So MS.M. Cur. edd. omit.

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Here is more information about Lilith and her dangers:

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Talmud - Mas. Shabbath 151b

R. Hanina said: One may not sleep in a house alone,14 and whoever sleeps in a house alone is seized by Lilith.15 

(14) Aliter: He who sleeps in a lonely (situated) house.
(15) The night demon. V.J.E. art. Lilith,

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[Speculation: Seized in as in having relations with ?  Could Lilith have been a possible cause of nocturnal emissions ?]


And on Page 531 The Wisdom of the Zohar Volume II (1991  Lachower, Tishby, Goldstein) Some demons  appear in the world in corporeal form and their intention is to cause havoc and injury especially during the moon eclipse. They approach to break down doors but flee when the see the name Shaddai on the mezuzah. On the eve of Shabbath they depart the world and hide in the crevices of the great deep. When Shabbath is over they reappear.

And Ramban (1974 edition, translated by Rabbi Chavel) discusses demons in Leviticus 17:7. Sheidim are demons. Unlike man who is created from 4 elements fire, water, earth, air the Sheidim are created from 2 elements fire and air. This provides a body that can not be felt and they can fly thru fire and air.


{ETA 1/14/2105  From Talmud Chagigah 16a 

Our Rabbis taught: Six things are said
concerning demons: in regard to three, they
are like the ministering angels; and in regard
to three, like human beings. ‘In regard to
three they are like the ministering angels’:
they have wings like the ministering angels;
and they fly from one end of the world to the
other like the ministering angels; and they
know what will happen like the ministering

angels...And in regard to
three, they are like human beings: they eat
and drink like human beings; they propagate
like human beings; and they die like human
beings.}

Modern people may scoff at the Talmud and other Jewish texts referring to ghosts and demons. These have not been understood to be Cro-Magnon, Neanderthals or even other primates. In ancient times(and even today all around the world in primitive and developed societies)  people believed in angels, demons and ghosts and other assorted supernatural beings and things. Many ancient Jews were most likely no different. (Even today many Orthodox Jews believe in them.)

It appears Eruvin is not discussing Cro-Magnon/Neanderthals but some sort of supernatural beings.

B) Schroeder also cites Jerusalem Talmud Peah 1:1 as one of his sources. However, there is nothing in that section, nor in the entire Peah related to the matter and so can be easily dismissed.

C) On page 142 through reference #16 Schroeder also cites Rashi's commentary on Genesis 3:6. [After Eve eats the forbidden fruit she is supposed to die. She then gives Adam the fruit to eat in order  to prevent Adam from remarrying].  Schroeder asks where are the other women, as if to support his own theory that Eve was concerned about pre Adam Soul-less Human females.

If Schroeder had researched Rashi’s commentary a bit more he would have found this.  Rashi’s commentary's  source is Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer chapter XIII. And the Pirke says Eve was afraid God would make another women. Neither Rashi nor the Pirke discuss  Soul-less Humans.  

 Here is a related Midrash:

Midrash Rabbah GENESIS XIX 5

"R. Simlai said: She came upon him with her answers all
ready, saying to him: 'What think you: that I will die
and another Eve will be created for you? There is nothing
new under the sun (Eccl. I, 9). Or do you think that I will
die while you remain alone ?  He created it not a waste, He
formed it to be inhabited' (Isa. XLV, 18)".


Even without the Midrash or Pirke’s comment there are possible answers to Schroeder’s  question without invoking Cro-Magnon as pre Adam Soul-less humans.


1) Adam could have begot children with Eve prior to the serpent coming along and then marry them or their offspring; (Bible may not have mentioned all the genealogical details. In Jewish holy texts we read about genealogic details that are not always provided in the Torah. ETA 12/25/2013 Midrash Rabbah Genesis 24:7 says  on the day Adam and Eve were created they cohabited and by miracle had offspring.)

2) Maybe Eve was concerned that Adam would begot with Lilith. According to some myths Lilith was created when Adam was.

In summary, it has been demonstrated Schroeder has speciously used the 3 Jewish texts to support his hypotheses.  Moreover, even if the Torah or Jewish texts had mentioned human like creatures it would prove nothing as previously explained.

Continued here  Part 4

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