The Challenge of Noah, Part Two

Updated thru 11/4/2016 - added commentary from JPS

Please at least skim The Challenge of Noah, Part 1 first.

This post will be devoted to sinking the Apologetic that the Noah story is an allegory/metaphor/parable. Religious people who advocate this approach probably acknowledge there was no world wide deluge, yet the Tenach and Oral Tradition is most likely describing a global deluge as I explained in part one. 

We will see that the Tenach and Oral Tradition almost certainly did not consider the Noah story an allegory, but rather as actual history. 

We will see the story provides the basis for actual commandments (see below). It would be odd to base commandments on a fictional story. Also, for example the Noahide laws apply to all mankind. They are called Noahide laws because the children of Noah were given seven laws and accepted them. But if all mankind did not descend from Noah, the laws would only apply to Noah descendants and not the rest of mankind.

Finally, if the Noah story is fictional which parts are fictional ? It is a slippery slope. “Genesis 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth; and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19 These three were the sons of Noah, and of these was the whole earth overspread.”
Note these verses imply all mankind descend from Noah and it refers to the flood story. But if the flood story is fictional maybe the Torah genealogies are fiction. The genealogies leading up to Avarahum Avinu (Abraham our father) could be fictional. Then maybe Avrahum is also fictional and so the  Israelites would not be descendants of Abraham. 

The Tenach

The Tenach most likely meant the Noah story as actual history. Here are some examples.

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish My covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of the flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Note - Establishing a covenant based on a parable makes no sense.

Genesis 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth; and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19 These three were the sons of Noah, and of these was the whole earth overspread.

Note these verses imply all mankind descend from Noah.


Genesis 9:18  "And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth; and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19 These three were the sons of Noah, and of these was the whole earth overspread. 20 And Noah the husbandman began, and planted a vineyard. 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his youngest son had done unto him. 25 And he said: Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. 26 And he said: Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be their servant. 27 God enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be their servant. 28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years; and he died. 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and unto them were sons born after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth...

Verse 18 writes Noah and sons leave the Ark-an event-period-marker, Noah plants the vine yard after which various blessings and cursings and then in verse 28 we are back to the flood - an event-period-marker and writing Noah lived after the flood. It makes no sense that Noah lived 350 years after a parable. Verse 10:1 again used the flood-event-period marker and it makes no sense to write about people being born after a parable. 

Psalms 104:5 Who didst establish the earth upon its foundations, that it should not be moved for ever and ever; 6 Thou didst cover it with the deep as with a vesture; the waters stood above the mountains..

Psalms 29:10 The LORD sat enthroned at the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth as King for ever.

Psalms 104 and 29 recalls the flood.

Isaiah 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 

Isaiah is treating the flood as an actual event.

Oral Tradition 

I am aware of no traditional sources advocating that the flood is an allegory.  My Orthodox Yeshivas taught the flood as a real event. In addition, if the story is an allegory why does the Talmud, Midrash, traditional commentators all provide additional real world information, details, miracles and facts about the flood ?

Here is sampling where it is self evident Oral tradition treats the flood as a real world event and sometimes it has legal implications.

1) Rambam - Guide to the Perplexed Part 3 Chapter 50

“It is one of the fundamental principles of the Law that the Universe has been created ex nihilo, and that of the human race, one individual being, Adam, was created. As the time which elapsed from Adam to Moses was not more than about two thousand five hundred years, people would have
doubted the truth of that statement if no other information had been added, seeing that the human race was spread over all parts of the earth in different families and with different languages, very unlike the one to the other. In order to remove this doubt the Law gives the genealogy of the nations (Gen. v. and x.), and the manner how they branched off from a common root. It names those of them who were well known, and tells who their fathers were, how long and where they lived. It describes also the cause that led to the dispersion of men over all parts of the earth, and to the formation of
their different languages, after they had lived for a long time in one place, and spoken one language (ibid, xi.), as would be natural for descendants of one person. The accounts of the flood (ibid, vi.-viii.) and of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (ibid, xix.), serve as an illustration of the doctrine that “Verily there is a reward for the righteous ; verily He is a God that judgeth in the earth” (Ps. IVIII. 12).

I have highlighted some very informative Rambam commentary. Let me explain. Rambam cites  Genesis X which begins with 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and unto them were sons born after the “flood”

Rambam is advocating the genealogy as history. Notice people are being born after the “flood”. Would it not be odd that a history lesson’s first sentence involves an allegory ? It makes more sense the sons are born after the flood is being understood as history. 


The accounts of the flood (ibid, vi.-viii.) and of the destruction
of Sodom and Gomorrah (ibid, xix.), serve as an illustration of the doctrine that “Verily there is a reward for the righteous ; verily He is a God that judgeth in the earth” (Ps. Iviii. 12).

Rambam is writing the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah are  illustrating a doctrine. How would fictional stories illustrate a reward for righteous or judgment ?  

2) Ramban commentary on

Genesis VI - Ramban asks how did the Ark space accommodate the many large animals ? And answers is was a miracle.

[It make no sense for G-d to provide a miracle in a fictional event.] [A reading of Ramban’s Noah story commentary makes clear he understood the flood as a real event.]

3) Rashi commentary on

Genesis VII:11 Rashi cites a dispute among the ancient Rabbis regarding which month the flood starts.

4) Genesis Rabbah 

28.8 - The earth acted lewdly; wheat was sown and it
produced pseudo-wheat, for the pseudo-wheat we now
find came from the age of the deluge. [Thus the flood is considered a real event]

28.8 Judgement of the flood generation lasts twelve months. [Talmud explains they also had no portion in the world to come.]

34.11 Discusses if the planets functioned during the flood. [Why the discussion if the flood was an allegory ?]

5) Talmud

The Talmud almost certainly is treating the Flood as a real world event and using the Noah story  to deduce actual law. Here are some examples. 

In Sanhedrin 56b, the Talmud tries to deduce halacha (oral law) from Genesis 9:6. 

Sanhendrin 59a “Our Rabbis taught: But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat, [Genesis9:4] this prohibits flesh cut from the living animal. R. Hanina b. Gamaliel said: It also prohibits blood drawn from a living animal....” [A halacha embedded in a fictional event ?]

Zevachim 113a - It seems halacha depends on  whether the holy land was flooded or not. How could a halacha depend on a fictional event ?

Sanhedrin 108a “Our Rabbis taught: The generation of the flood have no portion in the world to come, as it is written, And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground and every living substance was destroyed refers to this world; which was upon the face of the ground...”

Berachoth 59a 
“For at the time when the Holy One, blessed be He, wanted to bring a flood upon the world, He took two stars from Kimah and brought a flood upon the world.”

Roah Hashona 11b “ ‘In the sixth hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.’ [Genesis 7:11]  R. Joshua said: That day was the seventeenth day of Iyar, when the constellation of Pleiades sets at daybreak and the fountains begin to dry up, and because they [mankind] perverted their ways, the Holy One, blessed be He, changed for them the work of creation and made the constellation of Pleiades rise at daybreak and took two stars from the Pleiades and brought a flood on the world.”

Rosh Hashona 12a “Our Rabbis taught: ‘The wise men of Israel follow R. Eliezer in dating the Flood and R. Joshua in dating the annual cycles, while the scholars of other peoples follow R. Joshua in dating the Flood.”

6) Stone edition commentary

Page 14 - The flood begins in the year 1656 from creation.

Page 19 Be fruitful and multiply found in Genesis 9:7 is a command (Rashi).  Genesis  9:3 G-d now givess man permission to eat meat.  Genesis 9:5 G-d places another limitation on man’s right to take life. An accounting from one who spills his own blood.

Regarding Genesis 9:18-27  - Noah was humiliated resulting in blessing and curses. And regarding 9:25-27 Rav Hirsch calls them the most far reaching prophecy ever uttered.

[Can all the above based on an allegorical story ? ]


{ETA 11/4/2016 (7)  JPS - Jewish Publication Society The Jewish Study Bible - Berlin and Brettler Editors 2004

Page 25 In the Talmud,  Genesis 9:5  is interpreted as a prohibition against suicide (Talmud Bava Kama 91b).  And verse 6 is cited as support against abortion (Talmud Sanh. 57b). Regarding verses verses 8-17: "In the talmud, it is taught the 'descendents of Noah'   - that is universal humanity - are obligated by seven commandments:..."

[Notice all humanity descends from Noah. This must mean all other people had been wiped out in an actual flood. Also odd indeed for the Torah to embed laws within a fictional narrative. ] }

{eta 12/22/2019  (8) Sefer Kuzari I, 67  - written by Judah Halevi. He mentions Prophetic traditions of Adam and Noah. [In other words they were real people who provided traditions.] }

The Challenge of Noah, Part One

11/4/2016 Updated for a correction regarding Talmud Sanhedrin 108

Updated 11/19/2021 to cite Isaiah 54:9

The story of Noah and the Deluge encapsulates many of the major problems with the Orthodox Jewish narrative. The story conflicts with Biology, Genetics,  Geology,  Archaeology,  History, and Modern Bible scholarship. It has logistical impossibilities, and has pagan parallels. 

The focus of my Noah posts will be to show Orthodox Judaism has no intellectually honest responses to the challenges posed by the Noah story.

No modern scientific text advocates a worldwide deluge of the Biblical scale within the past 6000 years, and for very valid reasons. We may accept that it is almost certain it did not occur.

Apologetic responses have advocated a local flood or the Noah story is an allegory/metaphor/parable. Another approach is to accept a Biblical world wide flood and to make the flood fit with modern academic knowledge, typically by distorting modern academic knowledge or ignoring certain incongruities. When all else fails, cite miracles galore.

This post will torpedo the local flood approach and sink it.

Religious people who advocate this approach probably acknowledge there was no world wide deluge. It is a post hoc rationalization to force fit the Torah to modern science.  

The Tenach and Oral tradition are almost certainly describing a global flood.

The Tenach

I will quote some but not all chapters and verses supporting a worldwide flood.

Genesis 6:17 And I, behold, I do bring the flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; every thing that is in the earth shall perish.

Note the text “all flesh...under heaven”

Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I blot out from off the face of the earth.'

Note the text “every living thing that I have made”

Genesis 7:19-20 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered. 

Note the text “all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered. “

Genesis 7:23 And He blotted out every living substance which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping thing, and fowl of the heaven; and they were blotted out from the earth; and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark. 

Note the text - “Only Noah was left”

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish My covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of the flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Note - If the Torah deluge was a local  G-d’s promise makes no sense. There have been many local floods. What the text means is there will be no more world wide floods.

Isaiah 54:9 

“To me this is like the days of Noah,when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.”

This implies Noach was a global flood, because there have been many local floods.

Genesis 9:13 I have set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring clouds over the earth, and the bow is seen in the cloud, 15 that I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Note verse 15 “all flesh”. 

{ETA 11/3/2016 Genesis 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth; and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19 These three were the sons of Noah, and of these was the whole earth overspread.

Note these verses imply all mankind descend from Noah and so ther must have been a global flood destroying all mankind.}


Psalms 104:5 Who didst establish the earth upon its foundations, that it should not be moved for ever and ever;
6 Thou didst cover it with the deep as with a vesture; the waters stood above the mountains.

Note verse 6 “cover it [the earth] and verse 5 it is referring to the entire earth not a local portion. 

I came across this in Commentary on the Torah by Richard Friedman 2001 - 

Page 35 [Regarding Genesis 6:11 And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.] The book explains here the Hebrew word Eretz (translated as earth) refers to all the earth. 

Page 37 Regarding Genesis 7:11 “It is far more than an ordinary rain. It is a cosmic crisis, in which the very structure of the Universe is endangered.”

Oral Tradition understood the Flood to be Worldwide

I am aware of no traditional sources advocating a local flood.  My Orthodox Yeshivas taught a global flood.

Here is sampling of traditional understanding.

A) Radak Commentary 

On Genesis 7:11 - he explains the surface of the globe was flooded.

On Genesis 7:21 he explains 15 cubits of water covered even the tallest mountains making it impossible for ANY person to survive. [My caps].

On Genesis 8:17 - only very few of each species left the ark. They were told once more they would be numerous. [It seems to me this implies a global flood. If the flood was only local, they were already numerous]

B) Ramban  Commentary 

Ramban explains - The Ararat mountains are among the highest under the heavens per all commentators. [Also see Genesis 7:19-20 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.] 

On Genesis 8:2 - Water spread over the WHOLE EARTH. [My caps].

C) The Stone Edition Tenach - Rabbi:Blinder, Gold, Zlotowitz, Scherman 1996 Edition.

Page 14 Regarding Genesis 7:10-24 “The flood inundates the world”

D) Leviticus Midrash Rabbah 5.1 explains that after the flood the world was reconstructed from one man [Noah].

E) The Hirsch Chumash - Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch 2002 Translated by Daniel Habarman.

He writes beginning on page 172 - that the flood decayed bones and flesh and this would explain why no Antediluvian remains of man have been found. [This implies a world wide flood, because otherwise his explanation makes no sense.]

The Rav writes “Thus a whole generation went to its ruin because of its sin”; The whole generation was condemned to extermination, except Noach. “After 1,600 years of Human history, one man and his family stand alone and God continues to build his world upon this one man.”

Page 176 A new humanity descends from 3 ancestors.

Page 193 In the days of the Catastrophe a new world was formed.

Page 195 “Everything came to pass exactly as had been previously announced.”

F) Talmud 

Sanhedrin 108

“R. Johanan said: The corruption of the generation of the Flood is characterised as great, and their punishment is characterised as great. Their corruption is characterised as great, as it is written, And
God saw that the wickedness of man, was great in the earth; and their punishment is characterised as great, as it is written, All the fountains of the great deep. R. Johanan said: Three of those [hot
fountains] were left, the gulf of Gaddor, the hot-springs of Tiberias, and the great well of Biram.”

{It seems to me that “All the fountains of the great deep” are opened except three implies more, a lot more than a local flood. ETA 11/4/2016 - I think the talmud means to say all the fountains were closed after the flood except three.}

“Our Rabbis taught: The generation of the flood have no portion in the world to come, as it is written, And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground and every living substance was destroyed refers to this world; which was upon the face of the ground to the next....”

{It seems to me the term ‘generation of the flood’  is used without ‘local’ qualifiers thru out the Talmud and Rabbinic literature, meaning the entire generation of the flood, not just a local portion of the generation of the flood.}

Berachoth 59a 

“For at the time when the Holy One, blessed be He, wanted to bring a flood upon the world, He took two stars from Kimah and brought a flood upon the world.”

[It seems to me the terms “upon the world” implies non locality.]

Some Apologetics mislead by claiming there is a Talmud section that writes the flood was local. There is discussion in Talmud Zevachim 113a about whether the holy land was flooded or not. One master says yes, another no. Neither cite any other region that may not have been flooded. 

Continued Part 2

Jewish Oral Tradition Part 2, Treatment of Women

Updated thru 9/11/2016

Continued From Jewish Oral Tradition - Part 1 - Introduction

Some of my previous posts explained that the written Torah unfairly discriminates based on gender. 

We see this even in the 10 commandments.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 

Notice how a man's wife is lumped in with man's possessions such as a house, servants, oxen and asses. ( The Torah is not referring to the gluteus maximus here.)

Under Oral Tradition, women’s inferior status is ubiquitous. This post is only a tiny tip of the ice berg.

Women Can Not Be Witnesses, Women Can Not Contribute to Prayer Quorum, Women Ineligible To Judge; {ETA 9/11/2016 Women Ineligible To Be King Or In Authority.}

Rambam's Hilcot Edot Section 9 - Women may not serve as witnesses. Nor can servants; minors;  mentally or emotionally unstable individuals; deaf-mutes; the blind; the wicked debased individuals; relatives; and  androgynus are also unacceptable - for there is an unresolved doubt whether they are considered as women.

Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 55 - A minyan ( the number of congregants required for certain prayers) requires at least 10 males. Women don't count.

Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 7 A women is not eligible to Judge.

{ETA 9/11/2016 Rambam's Melachim uMilchamot  Chapter 1 Paragraph 5 - A women may not be appointed King. This also applies to all positions of authority in Israel.}

Only Male Polygamy is Allowed

Rambam's Hilcot Ishut - 14 -  A man can have numerous wives, and his wife may not object to this. [However  the Ashkanaz Jews later instituted a ban for Ashkanaz Jews, no doubt because of the surrounding Christian culture which prohibited polygamy.  I believe that ban was to last until a certain date, a date which I think has passed.] 

Marriage and Divorce Ala Oral Tradition

Talmud Gittin 90a Mishnah. Beth Shammai say: a man should not divorce his wife unless he has found her guilty of some unseemly conduct, as it says, because he hath found some unseemly thing in her. Beth Hillel, however, say (that he may divorce her) even if she has merely spoilt his food, since it says,  because he hath found some unseemly thing in her. Rav Akiba says, (he may divorce her) even if he finds another woman more beautiful than she is, as it says, it cometh to pass, if she find no favour in his eyes.

So per Oral Tradition what are the grounds for divorce ? They really did not know and made things up based on 'deductions' of Torah verse. 

Until about 1000 years ago - under oral law the male was able to divorce his wife without her consent.  European Jews thereafter required her consent. They just invented laws. 

Unlike the male, the wife can not issue a divorce. Rambam's Hilcot Gerushin 1 explains The man must voluntarily initiate the divorce. However, Gerushin 2 explains there are some limited circumstances where the man can be compelled to issue a divorce. 

Sometimes the man withholds giving divorce papers creating problems for the spouse; because she can not marry without them. 
{ETA 9/9/2016 Sometimes the man has vanished for one reason or another and this leaves the women unable to remarry.  These are called the Agunot Problems for more see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/agunot1.html }

The point is Divorce Oral Tradition style was and still is biased in favor of males. It unfairly discriminates based on gender. 

Only Males can initiate marriage. Talmud Kiddushin 2a -  A women is 'acquired'  in one of three ways: money or contract or sex. Kiddushin 5b But if she gives him (money or its equivalent)

and says ‘Behold, I am consecrated unto thee,’ ‘I am betrothed unto thee,’ ‘I am a wife unto thee,’ she is not betrothed.

Women's Mind

Talmud Yoma 66 - A wise woman asked R. Eliezer: Since with regard to the offence with the golden calf all were evenly associated, why was not the penalty of death the same? He answered her: There is no wisdom in woman except with the distaff. Thus also does Scripture say: And all the women that were wise-hearted did spin with their hands.

Talmud Avot - Chapter 1 Mishna 5 Engage not in too much conversation with women. They said this with regard
to one's own wife, how much more (does the rule apply) with regard to another man's wife.

Talmud Kiddushin 49b Ten Kabs [measures] of gossip descended to the world: nine were taken by women.

Conclusion

A compelling case can be made Oral Law and Tradition unfairly discriminates against women and holds man superior despite some modern day Rabbinic apologetics. 

P.S. Many Orthodox Jews today may not be sexist, but that is besides the point. The historical Oral Law and Tradition was sexist. Even if Oral Tradition may sometimes write complimentary things about women, it does not change the actual halacha - the oral law.

Continued Jewish Oral Tradition Part 3, Treatment of Heretics

Jewish Oral Tradition - Part 1 - Introduction

Updated Thru 9/11/2016

Orthodox Jews claim there is the written Bible and an associated Oral Tradition going back to the Moses. 

Which religious books (if any) are included as the Oral Tradition of Judaism ?

What is meant by the Oral Tradition of the Jews ?

Which Rabbis speak the Oral Tradition ? How do we know their opinion is authentic Oral Tradition ? 

Those questions have no easy answers. I am not sure there are agreed upon answers by Orthodox Jews. If so, the assertion of an Oral Tradition is virtually undefined and almost useless.

Is there an unbroken chain or Oral Tradition back to Moses ? Is it a reliable chain or does it have some weak links ?  

I am going to assume the Mishna and Talmud are essential parts of the Oral Tradition according to Rabbinic Jews. Those books have shaped the beliefs of most of ‘Rabbinic’ Jews, by which I mean ‘traditional’ Jews or ‘Orthodox’ Jews who claim to be following the Oral Tradition.

There is an enormous amount of what is most likely 'nonsense' in the Talmud. This has prompted the ‘rationalist’  Orthodox Jews  to distance themselves  (from at least some of ) the ’nonsense’, usually citing some Rabbi, perhaps Rambam for support.

Too bad the architects of the foundations of Rabbinic Judaism never heard of those Rabbis or Rambam; since the latter are born after the compilation of the Talmud. Moreover,  Rambam was  disparaged by many. and even his books were initially burned by some Rabbinic  Jews.  {ETA 9/11/2016 - Correction -  The actual burning of the books may not have been done by Rabbinic Jews. I am not sure if any Rabbinic Jews actually burned his books. However, it seems clear some Rabbis wanted a ban placed on some of his writings.} Those Jews probably did not consider at least some of Rambam opinions as authentic Oral Tradition.  

 Many Rabbis cited in the Talmud most likely believed their ‘science’, astrology, magic, amulets, demons, apparitions, golems, reincarnations, and probably some of their other assorted legends/fables, previously referred to by me as 'nonsense'. By putting such material into writing the Talmud authors implicitly validated at least some of  it  and so followers of Rabbinic Judaism for the most part accepted it.  It also raises several other issues.

To what degree were those Talmudic Rabbis relating authentic ‘Oral Tradition’ or just making up things or citing information  that is not really part of Oral tradition ? How can we separate the strands ? 

How much reliance and trust should we have in such ignorant people ? That they would accurately understand an Oral Tradition (even assuming an authentic one existed)  and be able to transmit it faithfully ? That they could  make correct deductions from the Torah ? 

We also know that as oral information is passed on and shared it becomes corrupted over time. There is a high probability that even if there was an authentic Oral Tradition it became corrupted. 

It is patently clear that on almost every issue discussed in the Talmud there are divergent and contradictory opinions.  So which one is the real Oral Tradition ? They all can not be correct.

Another major issue is that large portions of the written Bible have no Mishna/Talmud commentary. This is suggestive that Oral Tradition is incomplete and thus there must be portions of the (alleged) authentic Oral Tradition as well as the written Bible that are impossible to be understood fully. It also suggests that there were people 'developing' the Oral Tradition and they never got around to finishing the job. 

There is a section of  Talmud (Menachot 29b) that conflicts with the notion that ‘Oral Tradition’ goes back to Moses.

“Rab Judah said in the name of Rab, When Moses ascended on high he found the Holy One,
blessed be He, engaged in affixing coronets to the letters. Said Moses, Lord of the Universe, Who
stays Thy hand? He answered, There will arise a man, at the end of many generations, Akiba b.
Joseph by name, who will expound upon each tittle heaps and heaps of laws. Lord of the Universe,
said Moses; permit me to see him. He replied, Turn thee round. Moses went and sat down behind
eight rows {and listened to the discourses upon the law}. Not being able to follow their arguments
he was ill at ease, but when they came to a certain subject and the disciples said to the master
Whence do you know it? and the latter replied It is a law given unto Moses at Sinai  he was
comforted. There upon he returned to the Holy One, blessed be He, and said, Lord of the Universe,
Thou hast such a man and Thou givest the Torah by me!  He replied, Be silent, for such is My
decree. Then said Moses, Lord of the Universe, Thou hast shown me his Torah, show me his
reward...” 

If the Oral Tradition goes back to Moses should he not be cognizant and understand the lecture  ? 

Based on this Talmud alone we have reason to be skeptical that the Rabbinic Oral Tradition is authentic and goes back to Moses. 

And if there was an authentic Oral Tradition going back to Moses why is it that the Sadducees, Samaritans, Beta Israel, (and the Essenes ?)  did not accept the Oral Tradition as found in the Mishna/Talmud or were unaware of it or had an alternate oral tradition ? 

Continued Jewish Oral Tradition - Part 2,  Treatment of Women

Proof of God from Prophecy (Part 1)

Updated 2/27/2015  6/27/2018  4/23/2019

A text or individual makes a 'prophecy' for an event. The event came to occur. Thus the text must be of divine origin or the individual had divine information. Thus, God exists.

(I am using the term God to include something supernatural.)

Related posts are Proof of God from  Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor ;  Proof of God from Guarantees or Holy Sage Statements ;  Proof of God from Israel ; and a series of posts began with Proof of God from Fallow.

Many ancient cultures had 'prophets'. 

Section One will discuss the requirements for a text passage(s) or individual statement(s) to qualify as a prophecy. A failure to match any of the requirements disqualifies the text passage(s) or individual statement(s) from being considered evidence of a prophecy. There may be some overlap amongst the requirements.

Section Two will apply the requirements to Bible passages that are claimed by some Orthodox Jews and others proves the Torah is Divine.

Section One - Prophecy requirements

1) Open Ended. The prophecy must not be open ended or something inevitable. For example ‘There will be a great flood in China.' Given enough time a flood may occur in China.

2) Vagueness. The event being prophesied cannot be vague. The event must not be subject to retroactive interpretation so that many different outcomes may fit the event. For example 'a great war will erupt in Europe.'  Many great wars could qualify.

3) Impressiveness. The prophecy must be impressive. For example. ‘A great ruler Joe will arise in the North America'. Joe is a common name and given enough time a Joe (or a variant of the name Joe) may become a ruler someplace in North America. By luck or chance a 'prophecy' can  become fulfilled. 

Could a reservoir of available knowledge allow a text or individual to make a prediction that has a good chance of occurring.  Consider a  geographic region gathering momentum towards becoming independent. If a  text or individual makes the prophecy of nationhood that actually does become fulfilled, it would not be impressive. Or consider a nation surrounded by numerous powerful enemies. The prophecy is 'the nation will succumb to a violent destruction.’ 

4) Prophecy Date. We must be certain the date of the prophecy of an event is made before the event occurred. We must be certain the prophecy was not modified or written after the event. 

5) Controllability. The event being predicted cannot be susceptible to being controlled. This is similar to self-fulfilling prophecy wherein there is control of the event's occurrence or the possibility of influencing  the chance of it occurring.  

6) Fulfillment. A prophecy is made for a certain described event. Yet the outcome does not match the details of the description of the event.  

7) False Prophecies. If the text or individual makes many prophecies, were any not fulfilled ? If so, it suggests the non divine nature of the holy text, or the individual lacked supernaturally derived information. It suggests chance may have played a role regarding prophecies that are fulfilled. 

8) Intent. It must be certain from the holy text verses or from the individual making the statement that an actual prophecy was intended. Are they just warnings ? Are they just opinions ?  Are they propaganda for a certain agenda ? Are they to give hope ? An example -  'If nation XYZ  does not worship the nation's God, it will be destroyed.' 

9) Fulfillment of contingent conditions. Some prophecies are contingent on fulfillment of certain conditions. Have those conditions been met ?  Is it even possible to evaluate if the conditions have been met ?

For example - 'Unless America repents, a disaster will strike it'. How can we evaluate if America repents or not ?  What percentage must repent to avoid the disaster ?  If the disaster occurs, defenders of the prophecy will say it was because America did not repent. If the disaster does not occur they will say America repented 'enough', or God works in mysterious ways.

{ETA 4/23/2019 10) Recording Bias -see Proof of God From Prophecy Part 4  }

Some times there may be a 'prophecy' about a past event. This would be similar to my Proof of God from Secrets in Holy Texts . We mention here that this kind of backward looking prophecy requires that the 'past event' be something that could not be known to the book or person making the prophecy.

Every ‘prophecy’ offered as evidence of something supernatural suffers from one or more flaws. Some readers may disagree with some of the standards as being too stringent. Considering we are using prophecy to establish supernatural things, stringency is required.

{I have been informed of this write up Prophecy For Dummies which explains why you too should be skeptical of prophecies and the shenanigans used by 'prophets' and people arguing for and defending amazing true prophecies. This just the index so visit the site  for the details.

 1. Mission-Critical Principles: the Prophet’s arsenal.

1a. Retroactive Shoehorning: a Prophet’s best friend.

1b. Vaticinium ex Eventu: After-the-fact prophecy.

1c. The Law of Large Numbers: 1 in a million is all you need with a million prophecies.

1d. Predicting the Obvious: Case studies in "duh."

1e. False Fulfillment: Don’t let the facts stop you.

1f. Self-Fulfilling Prophecies: "They make it possible."

1g. Confirmation Bias: Make them squeal with select fulfillment.

1h. Wishful Thinking: Play off their dreams, hopes and fears for greater success.

1i. Dealing with Doubts: Reconciling Prophet Guilt Syndrome.

1j. Prophecy Aids: Dressing up both Prophecy and Fulfillment.

     2. Damage Control: the general anti-skeptic FAQ.

2a. Specifics, Dates and Deadlines: a Prophet’s bane.

2b. Unfalsifiable Escape Hatches: Preventing demonstrable prophecy failures.

2c. Unexpected Difficulties/Apologetics: Apologizing for failed prophecy.

     3. Concluding Remarks.

3a. Prophecy Verification Criteria: Avoid getting duped by other Prophets.}


Section Two - a Sample Torah Prophecy 

Some Orthodox Jews and others argue the rise of Modern Israel is fulfillment of  a Biblical Prophecy - Deuteronomy 30 - passages cited below.  

{Indeed, the rise of Modern Israel after 2000 years appears remarkable. Though this post is about prophecy I will briefly discuss this remarkable event. First related discussion is found in my posts Proof of God from  Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor , Proof of God from Israel.

In addition, remarkable historical events do not prove god(s). It would be an argument from ignorance or incredulity. Moreover, there are natural explanations that can account for many remarkable events of history. Discussion providing plausible reasons for the rise of Modern Israel are also found throughout this post. 

{Lets read the prescient words and wisdom from one of the greatest Jewish Philosophers 

A Theological-Political Treatise [Part I], by  Benedict of Spinoza (born 1632)  Translator: R. H. M. Elwes

(99) As to their [Jews] continuance so long after dispersion and the loss of empire, there is nothing marvellous in it, for they so separated themselves from every other nation as to draw down upon themselves universal hate, not only by their outward rites, rites conflicting with those of other nations,  but also by the sign of circumcision which they most scrupulously observe.
(100) That they have been preserved in great measure by Gentile hatred, experience demonstrates. 
(101) When the king of Spain formerly compelled the Jews to embrace the State religion or to go into exile, a large number of Jews accepted Catholicism. 
(102) Now, as these renegades were admitted to all the native privileges of Spaniards, and deemed worthy of filling all honourable offices, it came to pass that they straightway became so intermingled with the Spaniards as to leave of themselves no relic
or remembrance. 
(103) But exactly the opposite happened to those whom the
king of Portugal compelled to become Christians, for they always, though converted, lived apart, inasmuch as they were considered unworthy of any civic honours.
(104) The sign of circumcision is, as I think, so important, that I could persuade myself that it alone would preserve the nation for ever. 
(105) Nay, I would go so far as to believe that if the foundations of their religion have not emasculated their minds they may even, if occasion offers, so changeable are human affairs, raise up their empire afresh, and that God may a second time elect them.
(106) Of such a possibility we have a very famous example in the Chinese. 
(107) They, too, have some distinctive mark on their heads which they most scrupulously observe, and by which they keep themselves apart from everyone else, and have thus kept themselves during so many thousand years that they far surpass all other nations in antiquity. 
(108) They have not always retained empire, but they have recovered it when lost, and doubtless will do so again after the spirit of the Tartars becomes relaxed through the luxury of riches and pride. 

See (105) Spinoza's 'prophecy'}

{ETA 6/27/2018 Note: There have been massive deportations and exiles in history and some involved the eventual return of the 'people'. For example “In May 1944, the entire Crimean Tatar population of  Crimea was exiled to Central Asia.”  “Today, more than 250,000 Crimean Tatars have returned to their homeland,...” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
Another people that have been exiled are Chechens and many of them have returned ‘home’ see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechens

Page 417 The Anchor Bible Zechariah by Meyers and  Meyers 1992 - Regarding 14:2 “Into Exile” However it literally writes “in the exile”. Reflects the practice of deportation of subject peoples or parts thereof by imperial powers. NeoAssyrians perfected it. Used extensively by Babylonians and Persians. Deuteronomy describes the Babylonian conquest. In the exilic and post exilic contexts - a sense that a new age was on the verge of beginning if not already under way. Cyrus’s edict permitting return Judah 538 BCE and temples restoration and redictication in 516/515 BC viewed as mitiation of the future age. A kind of realized eschatology.

[ Regions where ‘deportation’ or scattering of people were not practiced would not result in those sort events occurring. In regions were such practices were imposed we would expect such things to happen. Nothing miraculous about making such a prediction and it occurring. Moreover, there have been scatterings of people other than Jews who eventually come back to their homeland.] }

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee over-abundant in all the work of thy hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good; for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as He rejoiced over thy fathers; 10 if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. {S} 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. {S} 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I declare unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; 20 to love the LORD thy God, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. {P}

I will argue the alleged prophecy violates or could potentially violate at least one of the prophecy requirements. My list is only a sample of the potential violations.

Violation of 1) Open Ended

Given sufficient duration, a country can lose it’s independence, regain it, lose it again etc:

Violation of 2) Vagueness

Was the prophecy referring to returning from the first exile or some other exile ? See Violation of 4) Prophecy Date 

Moreover, there are Chassidic (Ultra Orthodox Jewish)  denominations  who do not view the rise of Modern Israel as the fulfillment of Torah prophecy. In fact, some of them even whore after and consort with Israel's enemies. This is where theologians will debate and tell us what the Torah 'really' means.

Violation of 4) Prophecy Date 

Verse 1 - 'And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee...'

The Torah may have been redacted during the exile and so 'these things'  may have already came to pass.  

If the Torah was redacted within temporal proximity of the first exile or during the exile, then the promise of eventual return could be  propaganda. In fact, the Torah may well be referring to a return from the first exile. This is what many Bible Scholars agree on. I will provide only a sampling.

From the book - Self Fulfilling Prophecy - by Jacob Neusner 1987

Page 1  - Regarding the Exile beginning 586 BC: At the that time the exiles, drew together whatever stories, laws, prophecies and other writings and produced the 5 Books of  Moses. The experience of the Exile became part of the Torah in that the promise of the land of Israel is conditional. 

Page 20 "It was only after the destruction of the first Temple of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. that the Torah, that is, the five books of Moses, came into being. A pastiche of received stories, some old, some new, all revised for the purpose of the final authors. It was in the aftermath of the destruction of that Temple and the later restoration of the exiles to the land that the authors wrote the origins of Israel, the Jewish people." 

"From the exile in Babylon in 586 B.C., the authors of the Torah recast Israel's history into the story of the conditional existence of the people; their existence was measured in their possession of the land on condition of God's favor. Everything depended on carrying out a contract: do this, get that, do not do this, do not get that - and nothing formed a given and nothing was unconditional." 

From Jewish Publication Society Deuteronomy Jeffrey Tigay 1996 

Page 432 - Discusses Deuteronomy 4:29-31; 30:1-10 and goes on to explain they were probably not part of the original text but were interpolated during the exile to assure the Jews of that time that if they abandon sinning and return to God, he would return them to their homeland.

However, Deut 30 was written before the rise of Modern Israel. And most bible scholars would probably say before the end of the first Exile.

Violation of 5) Controllability

In the ancient near east certain  god(s) were often associated with certain regions. This was also true for ancient Israel, but eventually Yahweh/El  was freed from a specific region, perhaps as a result of the first exile and destruction of the first Temple. The Jews believed there was a special relationship between the Jews, God, and the promised land. Many still do. After an exile the hope of return developed in full force. It was that hope that leads to self fulfilling prophecy. 

It was not that a God had any role in the survival of the 'Jewish' people. Rather the 'Jewish' people's belief in the Torah and God helped preserve them.  In other words, it was their belief that eventually God would bring them out of exile/diaspora back to the promised land as per certain Torah passages. The  hope that redemption was just around the corner allowed them survive trials and tribulations. The Rabbinic tradition added the promise of  rewards in an afterlife. This also provided comfort and hope to survive trials and tribulations. In short, the Priests and Rabbis evolved theology that would help Jews survive.  

{Myths and Facts A Guide to the Arab - Israeli Conflict by Mitchell Barb 2006 edition

Page 1 “ A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the second temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their  historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.”

“Even after the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem, and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were established in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the 9th century....” The book goes on to explain there was uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward.

Page 8 - Late 19th century antisemitism in Eastern Europe and Russia stimulate Jewish immigration to Palestine. Simultaneously - a wave of Jews from Yemen, Morocco, Irag, Turkey motivated by the dream of the ‘Return to Zion’ and a fear of intolerance.}

Violation of 6) Fulfillment 

Verse 3 -  It is likely some of the 10 lost tribes are lost forever. They have not been gathered in as per prophecy. Millions of Jews still reside outside Israel.

Violation of 7) False Prophecies

A valid argument may be made there are ‘prophecies’ in the Tenach that have not been fulfilled. This would require a long post.

Violation of 8) Intent 

The Torah is making vague threats and rewards. Some of them are associated with ancient near east contracts. The rewards are most likely meant to influence behavior or give hope. (See Jewish Survival, Suffering and Bible Predictor. Also see above -  Tigay and Neusner in Violation of 4), 5)). Though the Jews were in exile, God would redeem them if only they maintained there separateness and returned to the code.

Violation of 9) Fulfillment of Contingent conditions

The rise of modern Israel is inconsistent with the Torah's 'prophecy'.

Verse 2-3 explain that if the Israelites return to the Lord and his laws God he will restore Israel's fortunes. But no such 'teshuva', meaning the return to the Lord and his laws ever occurred ! Rather the rise of Modern Israel was probably the result of long latent and overt anti-semitism in Europe which assisted in the birth of both secular Zionism and the Holocaust. After WWII there were many Jews displaced. The world, especially the powerful post WWII Christian nations thought a Jewish homeland would be a solution. Holocaust guilt and Christian theology likely played a role. Israel would also be a useful ally to the USA.

Continued Proof of God From Prophecy Part 2

Schroeder The Science of God Chapter Four

Updated 3/23/2016, 11/23/2016

Continued from here

{I have the 1997 edition. Schroeder has a newer edition - so the page numbers may not match up exactly. In addition, he may have changed his timelines a bit. Nevertheless, most if not all of my post will probably still apply to his newer edition.}

{12/31/2014 addendum - Schroeder's time line dated 10/2013 at http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=53 is 

Genesis 
Day 
1 13.9 Billion years ago to 6.9 Billion years ago
2 6.9 Billion years ago to 3.4 Billion years ago
3 3.4 Billion years ago to 1.6 Billion years ago
4 1.6 Billion years ago to 0.7 Billion years ago
5 0.7 Billion years ago to 0.2 Billion years ago
6 0.2 Billion years ago to 6000 years ago 

Using this new time line will change this post very little if at all.}

For reference here is Genesis 1 

Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. {P}

6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. {P}

9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. {P}

14 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. {P}

20 And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.' 21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.' 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. {P}

24 And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 29 And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food; 30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have given] every green herb for food.' And it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. {P}

Introduction and Schroeder's Formula 

{1/11/2015 I found some errors in my prior write up on the actual formula. But the conclusions did not change}

For discussion on the most likely translation of Gen1:1 see Kalam proof of god repudiated for theological reasons. For now we will mostly accept creation Ex-Nihilo as per the above translation.

This post will discuss Chapter 4. For others see Chapter 9 ,   and for Chapter 1 , Chapter 2 , Chapter 3 -section 1, Chapter 3 section 2, start here

Once again I will focus on our holy texts and how Schroeder uses/abuses them. There will be a limited amount of science.

Schroeder’s formula to shoehorn the billions of years of the big bang into the six days of genesis reduces to:

A=  (Cosmic Background Temperature at quark confinement divided by Cosmic Background Temperature now ) times (½) to the power of T. Dividing  365 turns days it into years.

'A'  is Earth time

T = 0 for  genesis day 1.
T = 1 for  genesis day 2. Etc:

Schroeder informs us Cosmic Background Temperature at quark confinement is 10.9 times (10^12)  Kelvin degrees,  and the Cosmic Background Temperature now is 2.73 Kelvin.

You can see the importance of what temperature is used in the numerator. Schroeder selection of quark confinement results in the duration since the Big Bang is about 15.75 Billion years ago. If he used the temperature say when Helium forms the temperature is cooler by about 1000 times and Schroeder would not be close to 15.7 Billion years. 

Why is Schroeder using a  (½) factor in the formula ? Why didn’t  he use a (1/3) or some other factor ?  Based on my reading he provides virtually no discussion and no sources advocating (½) for this important  factor. 

Schroeder is constrained by the requirement to get the resulting time periods and the activities that occur for each period according to science to match up Genesis activities for each day. 

To do this Schroeder will ignore the inconsistencies of science and genesis, sprinkle in some bizarre and novel ‘translations’ / ‘interpretations’ of Genesis, cherry pick and or misread some of our holy texts, speculate on what Genesis  and our holy commentators really mean, invent a formula to converge Genesis and Science, and ignore some science.  Intellectually honest ? No. Impressive ?  No.

But, how close does the formula correctly allocate the events of genesis to the billions of years of the Big Bang and Science ?

I wrote two posts exploring Genesis and Evolution, Genesis and Big Bang that outlines some of the disparities  between science and  Genesis. Maybe I have added a few more in this post. The obstacles required to overcome the science-genesis conflict in an intellectually honest way are insurmountable. In addition, if even one error is found in Genesis creation story, or in  any part of the Torah, it proves the Torah can not be divine.  I think there are more than one.


Genesis Day One: 15.75 billion years ago to 7.75 billion years ago

1a) Page 65 Schroeder cites Ramban Gen 1:4 the grabbing hold of time - see my discussion in Chapter 3 section 2, and the discussion of Schroeder’s formula above.

I will add another problem.... {ETA 1/10/2015 I deleted a  discussion that  'light' existing prior to  quark  confinement causes problems for Schroeder's time line. It gets complicated because of both the Science (did 'light' exist prior to quark confinement ?)  and interpretation of Torah verses.}

 1b) Page 66 - Genesis 1:2  Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters (מימ )


The Hebrew word מימ - (waters). Schroeder with no source support translates it as the universe. Schroeder  goes on to claim this verse is referring to the one Big Bang rapid inflation period, with no support except that God Hovering is a one time event in the Torah.  Maybe the Torah meant the spirit of God was hovering over the waters, just like it says. Rashi explains it as the throne of glory hovering over the water -  like a dove hovering over it’s nest.

And this brings up yet another conflict between Genesis and Science. Using Schroeder’s time line for day one, Science tells us there was no water in day one, yet Genesis has water on day one.

1c) Earth was formed about 4.5 billion years ago (wiki earth) putting the Earth within Schroeder’s Day 2 time frame.  But Genesis has Earth existing already on Day 1. A big  problem.

 Alternately Ramban has Earth formed on Day 3 which begins according to Schroeder 3.75 billion years ago. This is no good for Schroeder either.  

Is this one of the reasons for Schroeder’s odd translation of ‘water’ as universe in  Gen 1:2 ? To avoid this problem.

1d)  Page 65 Schroeder cites Ramban on Gen 1:5

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, day one.

Genesis writes  ‘day one’ as opposed to writing ‘first day’. Schroeder seems to insinuate some mystery to this - that Genesis is looking forward in time.

Ramban  explains it as follows:  The Torah writes  ‘day one’ as opposed to the ‘first day’, because ‘first’  would imply there are other days, which of course did not exist yet. Once day one is complete, The Torah can refer to day 2 as the second day. 

1e) Genesis - Does Genesis have Stars formed in day one ? Depends how it is interpreted. The plain reading Stars at Day 4. Science -  “Most stars are between 1 billion and 10 billion years old. Some stars may even be close to 13.8 billion years old—the observed age of the universe.” Wiki Stars.  So Stars would first appear within Day one per Schroeder time frames. A plain reading of Genesis does not have stars, sun or moon formed on Day one.

For alternate days for stars, moon, sun see discussion Day 4.


Genesis Day Two:  7.75 billion years ago to 3.75 billion years ago 


2a)  Schroeder claims the Genesis’s firmament formation is the formation of most of the stars of the Milky Way disc; and Sun formation.  This would conflict with Ramban’s interpretation of the events  - see day 4 below.

2b) Torah does not seem to have stars or galaxy formation on day one, yet Schroeder’s time line does. For alternate discussion of stars, moon, sun see day 4.

2c) Firmament  - does not appear at all in modern science and is relic of ancient science. See my Genesis and Big Bang post where this is discussed a bit more.

2d) Science says Earth appeared about 4.5 billion years ago, putting it into Schroeder’s Day 2. Depending how to interpret Genesis, Earth perhaps appears on Day one. Ramban has Earth created in Day 3 of Genesis. Not good for Schroeder. 


Genesis  Day Three:  3.75 billion years ago to 1.75 billion years ago 

3a) Genesis 1:11  And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 

Schroeder claims Genesis is referring to bacteria and algae. But Genesis has plants sprouting forth from earth , not water. This is inconsistent with evolution theory. Genesis was most likely not referring to microscopic bacteria and algae, but visible plants like grass etc:

3b) Page 67, 68, Schroeder claims the simple reading of Genesis 1:11 implying all types of plants is appeared on day three is wrong . He goes on to claim the Kabbala corrects this misunderstanding , that really plants only start on day 3 , but then develop during the following days, Schroeder  quotes Ramban “there was no special day assigned for this command for vegetation alone since it is not a unique work.”

Lets see what Ramban actually writes.

Ramban on Genesis 2:5 Citing Midrash Rabba 12:4 every herb of the field created on third day did not come forth above the ground but remained just below the surface of the earth  until it rains on the sixth day. 

[There is nothing about Plant creation taking place after day 3. It is just they are underground until day 6. According to science seed bearing plants appear  400 million years ago - within Schroeder’s Day 5 time line. This would be a  problem.]

But Ramban is of the opinion that on the third day the earth did bring forth grass and fruit trees in their full stature and quality. This is in contradiction Schroeder’s time line with plants only starting on day 3. And according to science flowers do not appear until 130 million years ago - Schroeder’s day 6. Kabala /Ramban had it wrong. This is another problem for Schroeder.]

Now onto Ramban on Genesis 1:12 Schroeder’s claimed source. I quote now in full.

Ramban writes “There was no special day assigned for this command for vegetation alone since it is not a unique work. The work of earth, whether it brings forth anything or is salt land is one.”

[Ramban may be teaching that the creation of plants was not a unique work because the earth was involved in it’s creation. He does not mention plants developing after day 3. Ramban even writes fruit trees develop on day 3 - see above. Schroeder’s claim that Ramban intends plants to only start on day 3 but continue after seems at best a poor speculation.]

Moreover, Schroeder is translating that the appearance of photosynthetic algae are included in the Torah’s plants. Yet, the Torah fails to mention the important simple cells (prokaryotes) which pre-date the cyanobacteria performing photosynthesis. The first living things are not plants.]



Genesis  Day Four: 1.75 billion years ago to .75 billion years ago 

4a) Schroeder on Page 69 -  cites Ramban, Talmud Hagigah 12A and Rashi to support the notion stars, Sun, Moon  were created during Day 4 as per Ramban or just became visible on Day 4.

Lets see what the sources actually write.

Talmud Hagigah 12A writes that according to Sages the light created on the first day is identical to the Luminaries which are created on the first day, but not hung up (in the firmament)  until the fourth day.  (Rashi just reiterates Talmud Hagiga 12A as the Luminaries are created on day one, but are suspended in the firmament of day four.)

The Talmud does not say became visible. It says hung up in the firmament. Also, according to the Talmud it maybe the Luminaries are actually created on day one. 

Schroeder claims: formation of the Firmament is Milky Way Disk 
Formation, and Sun formation occurring on Day 2. Then on day 4,  Earth’s atmosphere becomes transparent and so the Sun, Moon, stars become visible. 

Lets look at what Ramban teaches us regarding Genesis 1:14

Ramban explains as follows.  

First Day - light is created.

Second Day - Firmament made, which then blocks light from illuminating the lower elements.

Day Three - Earth is created and it is dark because the Firmament blocks light from reaching it.

Day Four - God desires there be firmament luminaries to light the Earth. God makes the light created on day one become corporeal.           
Do you see the problems for Schroeder ?

 First, the firmament per Ramban blocks light from hitting the Earth. This is not how Schroeder’s definition of the Firmament would behave.

Second, on day 4 Schroeder claims Earths atmosphere clears letting the Sun, Moon, and Stars become visible. This is not at all how  Ramban explains how light is received by Earth. 

Using Schroeder’s time line - Ramban has the Earth created on day three 3.75 billion years ago to 1.75 billion years ago. But Science says Earth appeared about 4.5 billion years ago, putting it into Schroeder’s Day 2.

Genesis  Day Five:  .75 billion years ago to .25 billion years ago 

Day 5  And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl   (עןף -   pronounced oaf )   fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.' 21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl (עןף ) after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl (עןף) multiply in the earth.' 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

Rashi explains ‘swarms of living creatures’ include flies, beetles, ants, worms, moles, fish  and some others.

 This puts insects in day 5 of Schroeder’s with no problem. But Rashi says it also includes moles. But moles do not appear before 200 million years ago which is in Schroeder’s day 6. See the problem. 

Genesis -  Birds are also created on day 5. But evolution tells us birds evolve 150,000 million years ago putting them in Day 6 of Schroeder’s time line. This is a problem. { ETA 11/23/2016  Correction made to And in Hebrew עןף are birds, not winged insects.  According to the (Zoo Rabbi)Rabbi Slifkin's book the Challenge of Creation on page 188 'every winged עןף' INCLUDES both birds and winged insects.} {ETA 11/23/2106 So the problem still remains even with this correction.}  

Ramban’s commentary on Gen 1:22 - and let the oaf multiply - also uses oaf to mean birds. Ramban explains - fowl are created out of the waters, but their blessing was to be on earth. No fowl lays it’s eggs in the water, but only on earth. [And Ramban is wrong - fowl evolve from land reptiles, not water reptiles.] 

Besides, insects are already included in ‘swarms of living creatures’ according to Rashi, so oaf most likely does not mean flying insects. 

Here are several examples from among many in the Tenach demonstrating oaf means fowl, not winged insects and not other winged animals. 

Levit 11:13 And these ye shall have in detestation among the fowls [oaf]; they shall not be eaten, they are a detestable thing: the great vulture, and the bearded vulture, and the ospray;

Palams 104:12 Beside them dwell the fowl [oaf] of the heaven, from among the branches they sing.

Levit 1:14 And if his offering to the LORD be a burnt-offering of fowls [oaf], then he shall bring his offering of turtle-doves, or of young pigeons.

Ezekial 31:6 All the fowls [oaf] of heaven made their nests in its boughs, and all the beasts of the field did bring forth their young under its branches, and under its shadow dwelt all great nations.

{ ETA 11/23/2016  According to the (Zoo Rabbi) Rabbi Slifkin's book the Challenge of Creation on page 188:  'every winged עןף' INCLUDES both birds and winged insects. Flying insects, when referred to in exclusion of birds are called sheretz ha-עןף. The Rabbi adds, even if you explain  'every winged עןף' as to be exclusively flying insects there is still a problem with Schroeder's time line:  Per Bible terrestrial insects are created on  the sixth day, and flying insects on the fifth day.  But according to science the terrestrial insects preceded the winged insects.}


Genesis  Day Six:  .25 billion years ago to 6000 years ago 


6a) Genesis  fails to mention the catastrophic extinction of 90% of life destroyed occurring within Day 6 of Schroeder’s time line. This occurred prior to the alleged flood during Noah’s time.

6b) Science -for the last 150 million years, birds; for the last 130 million years, flowers; 

These all occur within Schroeder’s Day 6 time frame.

But Genesis has Birds on Day 5 ending 250 million years ago. This is a problem for Schroeder.

Genesis - Flowers on Day 3 (so says Ramban too). Day 3 ends 1.75 billion years ago.  This is a problem for Schroeder.


Conclusion 

{ETA 11/23/2016 According to the (Zoo Rabbi) Rabbi Slifkin's book the Challenge of Creation on page 188: Science has birds appearing after terrestrial animals. Genesis has birds on fifth day and animals on the sixth. Genesis has the order is wrong}

{ETA 3/23/2016 Understanding Genesis by Nahum Sarna 1966

He translates Gen 1:1 “ When God began to create the Heaven and Earth..”

Beginning Page 2 Regarding Genesis Creation stories:

“It is obvious” none of the stories are based on human memory, nor are they modern science accounts of the physical world’s origin or nature. The stories are Non Scientific. It is a naive and futile exercise to attempt to reconcile Bible creation stories and modern science.  Any correspondences discovered or ingeniously established are nothing more than coincidence.  


The book also provide many points of contact with ancient near east mythology with Genesis creation stories. Beginning page 39 The  Flood story - The Torah used very ancient traditions adapted for it’s own purpose. }

My summary of Schroeder as in the Introduction of this post has been sufficiently demonstrated and moreover Schroeder's claim of the convergence of science and Torah is preposterous. Schroeder is bending and twisting them to converge. This is unbecoming for a Scientist and an Orthodox Jew such as Schroeder. 

I will end my non exhaustive review of Chapter 4 with the following quotes from Schroeder.

Page 70 “ Though the Bible is eerily true and filled with wisdom that would not have been known widely, if at all , when it was written , nowhere does it claim to have all the answers”

Schroeder has provided us with absolutely nothing in the Torah that could not have been known or guessed at in ancient times.  Also see proof of god from secrets in holy texts.

Page 71 “The discoveries of Science have brought forth the measurable indication that our world has an aspect that exceeds the materialistic” 

Does Schroeder means supernatural being(s) ? He has offered no evidence for the claim.

I then began to read Chapter 5. Page 72 “The God an atheist does not believe in is usually not the God of the Bible.

It is the very God of the Bible I do not believe in. Why I do not is one reason for this existence of my blog. Maybe Schroeder should learn about modern academic bible scholarship, ancient near east comparative religion-myth- rituals and  read the Torah with an open objective mind with no apriori religious dogma, such as it is a divine book and that it also has hidden secrets.