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No longer take comments. Post's 'labels' are unreliable for linking or searching. Use the INDEX OF POSTS instead. A fairly accurate, but incomplete INDEX of Posts & good overview and understanding of this blog READ SOME REASONS TO REJECT ORTHODOX JUDAISM my April 2014 post or click link above. Born into an Orthodox Jewish family (1950's) and went to Orthodox Yeshiva from kindergarten thru High School plus some Beis Medrash.Became an agnostic in my 20's and an atheist later on. My blog will discuss the arguments for god and Orthodox Judaism and will provide counter arguments. I no longer take comments. My blog uses academic sources, the Torah, Talmud and commentators to justify my assertions. The posts get updated. IF YOU GET A MESSAGE THAT THE POST IS MISSING - LOOK FOR IT IN THE INDEX or search or the date is found in the address.

Sunday, April 28, 2019

Kuzari Argument Part 23 or Proof of God from Miracles Part 3


It will be helpful to at least skim my Kuzari argument posts and Miracle posts 

Continued from   Kuzari Argument Part 22

Rabbi Gottlieb (RG) Principle: Let E be a possible event which, had it really occurred, would have left behind enormous, easily available evidence of its occurrence. If the evidence does not exist, people will not believe that E occurred.

This can be briefly restated as: If  people believe an event of type E occurred, then evidence must exist for the event's occurrence. 


[RG means to say a mass of people. RG does not mean if a only a few people.]

I am fully aware the following story is not like the Mount Sinai story but that is besides the point. RG’s principle is flawed for reasons I have discussed in prior posts.  One flaw is that it can not determine whether the witnesses opinion of the event are reliable.

There are interesting events that took place in Ireland in 1985.

From the book Looking For A Miracle by Joe Nickell 1993

Page 64 A Virgin Mary statue in a grotto in County Cork, Ireland swayed gently. Dozens of people including several news reporters claim to witness the movement. Some claimed the hands and feet moved. Scientists sent to investigate also saw the movement !

[I know what you are thinking. It was skullduggery, perhaps involving wires, smoke and mirrors and the like. Or you may be thinking the viewers drank a wee bit too much Irish Whiskey. However scientists determined something else was involved.] 

[Youtube has a video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZjM83wZmWw on the incidents at County Cork. The video claims thousands come and seven out of ten see something and even skeptics come away converted !]

The book explains the scientists know that NO STATUE MOVEMENT actually took place because they had filmed the statue and the film showed no movement. The scientists determined the viewers were unconsciously moving not the statue.  At dusk the statue has a halo of lights and that halo was providing a reference point for the eye. The viewer can not detect that one's head and body are unconsciously moving. 

[I strongly suspect prior religious beliefs and group think also played a role for some on lookers.]

When I read or hear about stories involving miracles, ghosts, demons, haunted houses, mental telepathy,  telekinesis, and other alleged supernatural things I give them very little credibility.  For any of that sort of stuff to be true it would mean that the established physics that we know operates 100% of the time in our part of the cosmos would be violated.  What is more likely - that well tested physics is violated or that  the stories are bunk or poor evidence for one reason or another. Save yourself time, money, mental energy and physical energy - be skeptical. 

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