Updated 3/21/2019 to include some (but not all) of the relevant links supporting my comments.
Continued from Kuzari Argument Part 21
I want to thank Rabbi Gottlieb for reviewing my blog post on the Miracle of the Sun.
See Rabbi Gottlieb's apparent counterexamples to kuzari
Retrieved 3/20/2019
If the Rabbi reads all my Kuzari posts he will see my reasons for rejecting Kuzari style arguments including his own.
I am going to focus on only a few points the Rabbi makes.
G1) Here is what I wrote in my original post Miracle of the Sun:
Rabbi Gottlieb (RG) Principle: Let E be a possible event which, had it really occurred, would have left behind enormous, easily available evidence of its occurrence. If the evidence does not exist, people will not believe that E occurred.
This can be briefly restated as: If people believe an event occurred, then evidence must exist for the event's occurrence.
The Rabbi critique : Let’s call the last paragraph AK. This is a gross mistake: RG and AK are very different in content. AK implies that if people believe that Muhammad ascended to the sky on a fiery horse, there must be evidence that he did. RG does not imply this. His mistake is to leave out the qualification: “event which, had it really occurred, would have left behind enormous, easily available evidence of its occurrence.” Muhammad’s ascent does not meet this condition.A great deal of his argument below is undone by this mistake.
My response to this critique: There is no AK intended. I have edited all my posts to reflect my original intention that the brief restatement was meant to be the RG principle. RG Can be briefly restated as: If people believe an event of type E occurred, then evidence must exist for the event's occurrence. Do the alleged unnatural events at Mt Sinai qualify as an event of type E ? If they do why not those alleged unnatural events at Fatima ?
G2) The Rabbi writes: Here is a crucial mistake in logic. At no point do I say, imply, suggest, hint or otherwise indicate the judgment of the witnesses as to whether the event was a miracle. In my view that is irrelevant. All I take from the witnesses is their account of what they experienced. It is our judgment that the described phenomena are miraculous. They say the mountain was aflame, the ground was shaking under their feet, there was cloud and smoke, the sound of a shofar, and they all heard a voice. It is our judgment that if they really experienced all of that it was a miracle.
Similarly, we should accept the testimony that they saw something happen in the sky that astonished them and created the impression of a miracle. Since they do not report (so far as I have seen) how long the vision lasted, and how long they were in an ecstatic state afterwards, there is no difficulty in accepting their statement that the wet ground and clothes became dry. It is then up to us to decide whether having that experience is evidence that a miracle occurred.”
My Response to this critique: In older Kuzari posts I argued very similar to reject the Mount Sinai story ! They say the mountain [Sinai] was aflame, the ground was shaking under their feet, there was cloud and smoke, the sound of a shofar, and they all heard a voice. It is our judgment that if they really experienced all of that it was a miracle or divine revelation or not. I think it is plausible the Mt Sinai event (even is there is some truth to the story) did not involve an actual miracle or an actual divine revelation. I think it is plausible the Miracle of Sun event(s) did not involve actual Miracle(s) or an actual divine revelation or unnatural things.
G3) Rabbi Writes “And note that a vision of a religious figure is claimed only for the three children. The tens of thousands see astonishing behavior of the sun and perhaps other items in the sky. There is no reason to doubt that some natural phenomena can cause such an experience.”
My Response to this critique: They say the mountain [Sinai] was aflame, the ground was shaking under their feet, there was cloud and smoke, the sound of a shofar, and they all heard a voice. There is no reason to doubt that some natural phenomena can cause such an experience.
G4) Rabbi writes: “RG only applies to an event that we would expect to leave behind enormous easily available evidence of its occurrence.”
My Response: I have written several posts discussing the problems with this “an event that we would expect to leave behind enormous easily available evidence of its occurrence”. Those problems are a serious objection to the usefulness and merits of the RG.
https://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2017/06/kuzari-argument-part-12_4.html Enemy aircraft over British South Africa ?
http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2015/12/kuzari-argument-part-10.html Rumour in Orleans
G5) Rabbi Wrote:
The first thing to note (as I mentioned above several times) that there are two different events in question here.
A. The experience of the people of a phenomenon in the sky that awed and inspired them and appeared to them miraculous.
B. G-d caused the phenomenon in the sky miraculously.
Let’s now try his argument for each event separately.
A: Would the event of tens of thousands of people having a vision that inspired them and seemed to them to be a miracle be expected to leave behind enormous easily available evidence? Sure! The people will tell it to others and a great many will believe that it happened. And that is indeed what happened. And therefore millions of people believe that event A happened. And they are right – event A really did happen.
My Response: The Rabbi writes the event he labled A: “The experience of the people of a phenomenon in the sky that awed and inspired them and appeared to them miraculous.” Happened. Well of course it did but that is not the point. They had their evidence something miraculous, something unnatural actually occurred and it is their story and interpretation that gets passed down thru the generations,. Thus later generation claim a miracle occurred , something unnatural was witnessed by their ancestors. Consider Mt Sinai. The ancient Israelites interpret the MT Sinai quaking etc: as a revelation from G-d, and that interpretation gets passed down and becomes G-d was at Mt Sinai. {ETA 3/21/2019 Some Ancient People related Mountains/Volcanoes with supernatural beings - this is documented in several of my Kuzari Posts. For example Kuzari Part 3,}
G6) The Rabbi provides his rational for the RG.
My Response: The RG principle is not a reliable guide for determining the veracity of peoples beliefs. Justification for this comment is found in my Kuzari posts, it's links and including my posts on Rabbi Kelemens Kuzari style argument.
A important one regarding 'events of our type'
Kuzari Argument Part 21 Rabbi Kelemen Bomb April 23, 2018
G7) MY CONCLUSION The Miracle of the Sun shows the RG principle is flawed for determining the veracity of peoples beliefs concerning current events or historical events. Per RG - If people believe an event of type E occurred, then evidence must exist for the event's occurrence. In the Miracle of the Sun let the event be the Sun danced and the other claimed unnatural things that occurred. Is this an event of Type E ? If Mt Sinai story is Type E, why not Miracle of the Sun events ? People will see and experience the event(s) that happen. The story gets passed around and down. We need not accept something unnatural happened at Fatima, despite the claims of a large mass of witnesses to unnatural events, despite claims of a large mass of their descendants and despite a large mass of their fellow countrymen. Much the same applies to the Sinai story. I applaud the Rabbi for applying some good critical thinking skills seemingly to reject the veracity of the Miracle of the Sun. It seems to me some of his critiques of the Miracle of the Sun story apply to the Mount Sinai story.
Continued Kuzari Argument Part 23 or Proof of God from Miracles Part 3
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query Miracle of sun. Sort by date Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query Miracle of sun. Sort by date Show all posts
Wednesday, March 20, 2019
Wednesday, June 28, 2017
Kuzari Argument Part 13
Updated 7/14/2017 for several typos for the date of the Sun miracle.
This is a continuation of of my Kuzari Posts begun here. It might be helpful to skim my prior Kuzari argument posts, but this post is more or less a stand alone, at least for people who have some familiarity with the Kuzari argument.
This post will flesh out an alleged miracle and it’s consequences I very briefly cited in June 2014.
Lets examine one version of the Kuzari 'proof' that the Exodus with all the miracles and the Sinai revelation really occurred.
Rabbi Gottlieb (RG) Principle: Let E be a possible event which, had it really occurred, would have left behind enormous, easily available evidence of its occurrence. If the evidence does not exist, people will not believe that E occurred.
This can be briefly restated as: If people believe an event {eta 3/19/2019 of type E} occurred, then evidence must exist for the event's occurrence.
[RG means to say a mass of people. RG does not mean if a only a few people.]
Lets try to apply this principle to the ‘Event’ = On October 13,1917 in Fatima, Portugal:
The Sun miraculously danced or performed other miracles in the Sky. Other miraculous things occurred: wet clothes became suddenly and completely dry; wet and muddy ground that had been previously soaked because of the rain that had been falling became dry.”
The main source I will use is the book The Sun Danced - Myth, Miracles, and Modernity by Jeffrey S. Bennett 2012. He is an Assistant Professor of Sociology and Religious studies. Some Sociologists study origins of myths, their evolution, use in society etc: Such disciplines have much more relevance to religion and myth formation as opposed to Math or Philosophy or Math Philosophy.
Beginning in the spring of 1917, three shepherd children living near Fatima reported apparitions of an Angel, and apparitions of the Virgin Mary, who the children described as the Lady of Fátima. They also claimed a miracle would occur.
Page 113 - The children claimed a miracle would occur in order that all should believe. 70000 to 100000 people gathered near the children. [ I have seen sources that had figures as low as 30000. There was a large mass of people at the event.]
Page 116 - And indeed an alleged supernatural events happen on 10/13/1917 “For the vast majority of those present, there was no doubt that something supernatural had occurred.” [I want to stress some very important points. We have eyewitness testimony of thousands who believe that something miraculous occurred at Fatima, just like Kuzari proponents claim there were eyewitnesses at Mt Sinai. But there is a big difference. We actually know for a fact that there were many thousands at Fatima who claimed something supernatural occurred, while we have no evidence of anybody even being at Mt Sinai.]
If you read the book it describes more mythology develops around the story: For example Page 167 - 168 Hundreds of sick and dying came to the apparition site for miracle cures and alleged success stories circulate - many more come. Claims that soil from the site cure people. Page 178 A bomb placed beside the azinheira failed to explode. (Page 94 Azinheira - an oak tree - apparitions had occurred there. See my post Tree animism in the Bible ). Page 120 Vandals cut down the Azinheira or so they think ! They cut the wrong tree down a sign God protects it and his people from anti-clerics.
[I have no doubt many people at the site did not accept the miracle of the sun. But is that really relevant ? We don’t know every alleged witness to Mt Sinai accepted it was a revelation from G-d. Besides the RG Principle does not require every person accept the story. For the Sun Miracle the vast majority of witnesses believed that on October 13, 1917 the supernatural had occurred. Can thousands of eyewitnesses be wrong ? Moreover the fact that some at Fatima experienced the supernatural event somewhat differently does not disprove the event. Eyewitness testimony is like that, and perhaps God chose some to see the miracle one way and others to see it somewhat differently.]
Page 124 The apparition claims spread beyond the local sphere, becoming translocal and national-level realities.
Page 1 More than twenty million participate in the apparition cult. Every year several million travel from around the world to the apparition site. The Sun miraculously danced proving the children visions were of divine origin.
The miracle is sanctioned by the Catholic Church.
The story eventually is used to fight communism.
Page 4 - It is a National Miracle
Page 117 Accounts of the miracle are passed down as family history. [Just like the Sinai story was allegedly passed down from alleged witnesses to an alleged supernatural seminal event to their children. Would my father lie to me about the supernatural events of October 13, 1917 ? Plus, thousands of children hear other children talk about the supernatural events of October 13, 1917 as those other children heard from their Uncles or Fathers. And so after many generation millions believe the miracles of October 13, 1917. If millions believe a supernatural event can millions be wrong ?]
[What is interesting about the story: The children had primed people for the anticipation of a miracle. Many of the witnesses already believed in the supernatural already. {And as I have written in my prior Kuzari posts priming of the witnesses and prior belief in supernatural by the witnesses were also present at the alleged Mt Sinai event.} The story is rooted in religious and political subdivisions in 1917 and earlier Portugal. {Could the the Mt Sinai story have similar kinds of roots - religious and political subdivision amongst the ancient Israelites ? Propaganda purposes for one reason or another ?} The intertwining of a popular religious movement with Portugal History and the appropriation of a religious movement for political purposes and the cults relationship to the rise of Authoritarianism Politics. {hmm}. Religions and Mythology don’t develop or operate in a vacuum like Event--------> Belief in Miracle/Religion/Mythology. It is a much more nuanced as the book explains for this Fatima miracle.] The Miracle of the Sun is UNIQUE as far as I know.
If it is so easy to fool people with a Sun miracle why have
not other religions made use of it ? And arguably is was a Nation
changing event for Portugal and was used to fight communism. It
must be a true miracle. Convinced ?
Continued Kuzari Part 13 continued
This is a continuation of of my Kuzari Posts begun here. It might be helpful to skim my prior Kuzari argument posts, but this post is more or less a stand alone, at least for people who have some familiarity with the Kuzari argument.
This post will flesh out an alleged miracle and it’s consequences I very briefly cited in June 2014.
Lets examine one version of the Kuzari 'proof' that the Exodus with all the miracles and the Sinai revelation really occurred.
Rabbi Gottlieb (RG) Principle: Let E be a possible event which, had it really occurred, would have left behind enormous, easily available evidence of its occurrence. If the evidence does not exist, people will not believe that E occurred.
This can be briefly restated as: If people believe an event {eta 3/19/2019 of type E} occurred, then evidence must exist for the event's occurrence.
[RG means to say a mass of people. RG does not mean if a only a few people.]
Lets try to apply this principle to the ‘Event’ = On October 13,1917 in Fatima, Portugal:
The Sun miraculously danced or performed other miracles in the Sky. Other miraculous things occurred: wet clothes became suddenly and completely dry; wet and muddy ground that had been previously soaked because of the rain that had been falling became dry.”
The main source I will use is the book The Sun Danced - Myth, Miracles, and Modernity by Jeffrey S. Bennett 2012. He is an Assistant Professor of Sociology and Religious studies. Some Sociologists study origins of myths, their evolution, use in society etc: Such disciplines have much more relevance to religion and myth formation as opposed to Math or Philosophy or Math Philosophy.
Beginning in the spring of 1917, three shepherd children living near Fatima reported apparitions of an Angel, and apparitions of the Virgin Mary, who the children described as the Lady of Fátima. They also claimed a miracle would occur.
Page 113 - The children claimed a miracle would occur in order that all should believe. 70000 to 100000 people gathered near the children. [ I have seen sources that had figures as low as 30000. There was a large mass of people at the event.]
Page 116 - And indeed an alleged supernatural events happen on 10/13/1917 “For the vast majority of those present, there was no doubt that something supernatural had occurred.” [I want to stress some very important points. We have eyewitness testimony of thousands who believe that something miraculous occurred at Fatima, just like Kuzari proponents claim there were eyewitnesses at Mt Sinai. But there is a big difference. We actually know for a fact that there were many thousands at Fatima who claimed something supernatural occurred, while we have no evidence of anybody even being at Mt Sinai.]
If you read the book it describes more mythology develops around the story: For example Page 167 - 168 Hundreds of sick and dying came to the apparition site for miracle cures and alleged success stories circulate - many more come. Claims that soil from the site cure people. Page 178 A bomb placed beside the azinheira failed to explode. (Page 94 Azinheira - an oak tree - apparitions had occurred there. See my post Tree animism in the Bible ). Page 120 Vandals cut down the Azinheira or so they think ! They cut the wrong tree down a sign God protects it and his people from anti-clerics.
[I have no doubt many people at the site did not accept the miracle of the sun. But is that really relevant ? We don’t know every alleged witness to Mt Sinai accepted it was a revelation from G-d. Besides the RG Principle does not require every person accept the story. For the Sun Miracle the vast majority of witnesses believed that on October 13, 1917 the supernatural had occurred. Can thousands of eyewitnesses be wrong ? Moreover the fact that some at Fatima experienced the supernatural event somewhat differently does not disprove the event. Eyewitness testimony is like that, and perhaps God chose some to see the miracle one way and others to see it somewhat differently.]
Page 124 The apparition claims spread beyond the local sphere, becoming translocal and national-level realities.
Page 1 More than twenty million participate in the apparition cult. Every year several million travel from around the world to the apparition site. The Sun miraculously danced proving the children visions were of divine origin.
The miracle is sanctioned by the Catholic Church.
The story eventually is used to fight communism.
Page 4 - It is a National Miracle
Page 117 Accounts of the miracle are passed down as family history. [Just like the Sinai story was allegedly passed down from alleged witnesses to an alleged supernatural seminal event to their children. Would my father lie to me about the supernatural events of October 13, 1917 ? Plus, thousands of children hear other children talk about the supernatural events of October 13, 1917 as those other children heard from their Uncles or Fathers. And so after many generation millions believe the miracles of October 13, 1917. If millions believe a supernatural event can millions be wrong ?]
[What is interesting about the story: The children had primed people for the anticipation of a miracle. Many of the witnesses already believed in the supernatural already. {And as I have written in my prior Kuzari posts priming of the witnesses and prior belief in supernatural by the witnesses were also present at the alleged Mt Sinai event.} The story is rooted in religious and political subdivisions in 1917 and earlier Portugal. {Could the the Mt Sinai story have similar kinds of roots - religious and political subdivision amongst the ancient Israelites ? Propaganda purposes for one reason or another ?} The intertwining of a popular religious movement with Portugal History and the appropriation of a religious movement for political purposes and the cults relationship to the rise of Authoritarianism Politics. {hmm}. Religions and Mythology don’t develop or operate in a vacuum like Event--------> Belief in Miracle/Religion/Mythology. It is a much more nuanced as the book explains for this Fatima miracle.] The Miracle of the Sun is UNIQUE as far as I know.
If it is so easy to fool people with a Sun miracle why have
not other religions made use of it ? And arguably is was a Nation
changing event for Portugal and was used to fight communism. It
must be a true miracle. Convinced ?
Continued Kuzari Part 13 continued
Monday, August 28, 2017
Kuzari Part 13 Miracle of the Sun continued
How might the Kuzari argument/principle advocates respond to the Miracle of the Son Sun (as described in Kuzari Part 13 ) ?
Response 1) The mass of people who claimed they witnessed supernatural events are wrong for one reason or another.
But this response destroys the Kuzari principle, because then a mass of people can be wrong about witnessed event(s). So the Kuzari proponent seems forced to select Response 2.
Response 2) The Miracle of the Sun involved supernatural events.
First - that response would lend to support to the Pope/Vatican claim the Miracle of the Sun supports the truth of Christianity. I have difficulty accepting such a notion after being taught that Christianity is a false religion.
But there are deeper problems with response 2 and it highlights some problems with the Kuzari Principle. First, not all witnesses to the events on October 13,1917 claim anything supernatural happened. In other words we have competing mass claims. Secondly, imagine this event happening over 2000 years ago. The believer’s story gets recorded, have reason to tell their children and authorities may have reasons to perpetuate the story. While dissidents are forgotten, leaving the impression all agreed a Miracle occurred.
The third problem is many experts have offered natural explanations of what occurred on October 13,1917 and it is more reasonable to accept natural explanation than claims of miracles. In other words, we need not accept a mass of people claim as to what really occurred at an event and thus the Kuzari principle is flawed.
Next up Kuzari Part 14
ALSO very related is my review of Rabbi Gottlieb's review of my blog post Miracle of the Sun
http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2019/03/kuzari-argument-part-22-or-miracle-of.html
Response 1) The mass of people who claimed they witnessed supernatural events are wrong for one reason or another.
But this response destroys the Kuzari principle, because then a mass of people can be wrong about witnessed event(s). So the Kuzari proponent seems forced to select Response 2.
Response 2) The Miracle of the Sun involved supernatural events.
First - that response would lend to support to the Pope/Vatican claim the Miracle of the Sun supports the truth of Christianity. I have difficulty accepting such a notion after being taught that Christianity is a false religion.
But there are deeper problems with response 2 and it highlights some problems with the Kuzari Principle. First, not all witnesses to the events on October 13,1917 claim anything supernatural happened. In other words we have competing mass claims. Secondly, imagine this event happening over 2000 years ago. The believer’s story gets recorded, have reason to tell their children and authorities may have reasons to perpetuate the story. While dissidents are forgotten, leaving the impression all agreed a Miracle occurred.
The third problem is many experts have offered natural explanations of what occurred on October 13,1917 and it is more reasonable to accept natural explanation than claims of miracles. In other words, we need not accept a mass of people claim as to what really occurred at an event and thus the Kuzari principle is flawed.
Next up Kuzari Part 14
ALSO very related is my review of Rabbi Gottlieb's review of my blog post Miracle of the Sun
http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2019/03/kuzari-argument-part-22-or-miracle-of.html
Monday, May 29, 2017
INDEX OF POSTS BY CATEGORY
There was an accident, but ALL posts are still here. Check the Index of Posts or search or check the address that 'does not work' and that gives the date of the post. No labels work.
I think this is a complete index of posts including dates. It is organized roughly by category, but there is so much overlap. And the post's content may overlap categories. Very rarely did I put the same post into two different categories.
Many posts have multiple parts. Usually I provided the titles, dates and links to the first part only.
If you desire a summary of my blog see this post
Some Reasons to Reject Orthodox Judaism 4/2/14. It lists a sample of posts
Book Reviews
The Challenge Of Creation - by Rabbi Slifkin 11/19/16 - a critique of RS’s apologetics
The Science of God - Schroeder Chapter 9 - 12/9/2013 a critique of Schroeder’s apologetics
The Science of God - by Gerald Schroeder Chapter 1 thru 4 12/9/14 a critique of Schroeder’s apologetics.
The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs - Fundamentalism and the Fear of Truth by Solomon Schimmel, 11/29/14 with my additional commentary and discussion of some common apologetics, some reasons why religions persist and more.
The God Virus by Darrel W. Ray - (inspiration for the post Corona Virus and The God Virus ) 3/14/2020
Every Life Is On Fire How Thermodynamics Explains The Origins Of Life by Jeremy England 2020 10/16/2020
Torah Holidays - Origins/Pagan Parallels
The Torah Scapegoat - Azazel 10/22/13
Yom Kippur Origins 10/27/13 Pagan Parallels
Passover Origins; & short note on Human Sacrifice 11/11/13
Sabbath, Day Seven and Moon Cults or Fertility Cults 8/18/13
Sukkos Feast of Tabernacles Pagan Parallels 10/18/2017
Historicity of Purim, Origins of Purim
Torah Rituals/Laws - Pagan Parallels - Repudiation of Apologetics
Proof of God from Circumcision by the Jews on the eighth day of life 8/12/13
'Statute Forever' in the Bible 3/2/14 Are the Torah laws divine or just superstitions ? Refutes Rambam style apologetics.
'Cut Off" in the Bible 2/27/14 Are the laws and their punishments divine or just superstitions. Refutes Rambam style apologetics.
The Bible Serpent and Magic 2/26/15
Human Sacrifice in the Bible 1/14/14
Pascal's Wager 12/27/2017
Torah Discrimination or Unfair Laws, Pagan Parallels
The Bible, the Brother, and the Widow 2/4/14
The Bible, The Husband, and The Virgin 2/3/14
Suspected Adultery and the Bible Remedy 1/18/14
The Bible, The Priests, The Female and the Disabled 2/17/14
Oral Law Part Two - Treatment of Women - Sexist laws 9/11/2016
Challenges to the Torah and Orthodox Jewish Narrative
Ancient Texts and gods JUly 29, 2018
Some Reasons to Reject Orthodox Judaism 4/2/14
The Dangers of Circumcision as found in the Talmud 1/15/14
Circumcision and Maimonides 3/18/14
Who Wrote the Bible 12/10/15 - Strong evidence the whole Bible can not be from the Mosaic period.
The Challenge of Noah, 11/3/16 - the Noah story as an argument against Orthodox Judaism, refutations of some Orthodox Jewish apologetic responses.
Jewish Oral Tradition 8/27/16
Genesis and Evolution 9/27/13 - Some discrepancies and why they are irreconcilable in intellectually honest fashion.
Genesis and the Big Bang 9/10/13 Some discrepancies between Genesis and modern cosmology and why they are irreconcilable in intellectually honest manner.
Proof /Disproof of God from Kosher Animals 1/10/14
Proofs of Orthodox Jewish Narrative Repudiated
Kuzari Principle or Argument Part 1 7/24/13 Includes White Buffalo Women Revelation. ( These posts include Rabbi Gottlieb’s and Rabbi Kelemen’s versions among others either directly or indirectly.) Probably most Orthodox Jews would consider this argument the strongest argument for Judaism. Some use it to "prove" the existence of G-d. I devoted more posts to this "proof" than any other. I have also included links to several other Ex-Orthodox Jews who address the argument in a different fashion than myself. The argument may have merit to distinguish the claims of one religion/myth from another but it has too many weaknesses to be used as valid evidence or proof for the alleged Mount Sinai Divine revelation or the existence of G-d. I am including a short description of the main topic(s) of my Kuzari posts.
Kuzari argument part 2 1/27/14 Covers a wide range of information - Including Logical fallacies, Archaeology, Ancient Near East religion myth, 600000 Exodus, Angel of Mons, Castor and Pollux, Perseus, Aztec, and much more
Kuzari Part 3 6/23/14 Including Mt Sinai Uniqueness; Mt Sinai Story as a natural event.
Kuzari Argument Part 4 7/13/14 Reik's Mystery on the Mountain, Mt Sinai story as a invocation. Detailed review of Exodus revelation.
Kuzari Part 5 8/23/15 Pygmy Kitabu
Kuzari Argument Part 6 9/4/15 National Traditions
Kuzari Argument Part 7 11/16/15 Propp and the Kuzari, Invention of Tradition, Kamikazi attack on Kuzari, The Milk Miracle
Kuzari Argument Part 8 11/30/15 Does Mt Sinai story count as an Event of Type E ?
Proof of God from Miracles or Kuzari Argument Part 9 12/26/15 Spinoza, Hume, Keller
Kuzari Argument Part 10 12/28/15 Rumour in Orleans
Kuzari Part 11 12/29/15 Rumor, myth, legend, urban legend, national tradition, collective memory, group think.
Kuzari Part 12 6/4/2017 Enemy aircraft over British South Africa ?
Kuzari Argument Part 13 6/28/2017 A 'mass' miracle involving the 'Soun'.
Kuzari Argument Part 13 Continued 8/27/2017 More on Miracle of Sun - some religious responses.
Kuzari Argument Part 14 10/20/2017 Is there an unbroken chain of Sinai-Exodus story transmission ? Can national tradition of national events be introduced ?
Proof of God From Miracles (part 2) or Kuzari Part 15 12/31/2017 Miracle Manna
Kuzari Argument Part 16 - Permission To Receive Rabbi Kelemen 3/27/2018
Kuzari Argument Part 17 - Apple White Theorem, Rabbi Kelemen 3/28/2018
Kuzari Part 18 Unbroken Chain ?, Hints For Rabbi Kelemen April 5, 2018
Kuzari argument Part 19 plus some Critique Rabbi Kelemen's Book of Permission To Receive April 7, 2018 Applying Rabbi Kelemen's criteria to the Torah informs s the Torah is suspected of not being divine. The Ten Commandments.
Kuzari Argument Part 20 Rabbi Kelemen Incunabular Argument Permission To Receive - Mainly about 'the Rabbi's Past Theory April 15, 2018
Kuzari Argument Part 21 Rabbi Kelemen Bomb April 23, 2018
Kuzari Argument Part 22 or Miracle Of Sun Part 13c- Rabbi Gottlieb Review 3/20/2019 My response to the Rabbi's review of my Miracle of Sun Post
Kuzari Argument Part 23 or Proof of God from Miracles Part 3 4/28/2019 Miracles at County Cork, Ireland
Kuzari Part 24 Uyghurs 12/12/2021 False history accepted by Uyghurs
Kuzari Argument Part 25 - 12/27/2021 National Experiential Tradition - Armenian Genocide
Alter Cocker Jewish Atheist: Kuzari Argument Part 26 National Experiential Tradition
Kuzari Argument Part 27 Palestinian Genocide Claim
Proof of God via Jewish Survival, Jewish Suffering, and the Bible Predictor 8/12/13
Proof of God from Israel 1/28/15
Proof of God from Prophecy 1/27/15 - also includes comments on proofs from Israel.
Proof of God from Circumcision by the Jews on the eighth day of life 8/12/13
Proof of God from Gematria ,Bible Codes 7/23/13
Proof /Disproof of God from Kosher Animals 1/10/14
Proof of God from Mummy 10/14/15 Supernatural preservation ?
Proof of God from Prayer- Miraculous Recoveries 7/12/15
Proof of God from Hebrew 5/15/15 Is Hebrew script divine ?
Proof of God from Purim Fest 1946 or Prophecy of Nazis in Megillah 3/17/15
Proof of God from Guarantees or Holy Sage Statements 1/27/15
Proof of God based on Claim of Prophecy of Nazis in the Talmud 11/26/14
Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow 11/25/14
Proof of God from Gaza Rockets 8/5/14
Proof of God from Secrets in Holy Texts (Part 1 and Part 2 3/22/2018} 5/16/14 Included are some examples: Life Span, Moon Renewal, Dead Stars
Proof of God From Number of Stars in Talmud
Kalam Cosmological proof of God repudiated by Theology 2/16/14 - Does Genesis even describe creation Ex-Nihilo ? If not, then the proof backfires.
Proof of God from Life; Genesis 2:7 8/27/16 Pagan Parallels, Genesis false myth
Proof of God from Miracles or Kuzari Argument Part 9 12/26/15
Proof of God from Coincidences in Bible and Hebrew Bible Codes 11/3/15
Proof of God from Morality 5/27/14
Proofs of God Repudiated
Proof of God Burden 5/27/17 - Who has the burden of proof ?
Proof of God from the Gaps, Sherlock Holmes, and Absence of Evidence 3/10/16 - faulty reasoning.
Proof of God from Free Will, Justice, Consciousness, BLANK 8/4/15
Proof of God from Thermodynamics 12/19/15 also includes additional refute that God must be the Designer.
Proof of God from Fine Tuning 1/16/15 I do not think Rambam would approve of this argument.
Kalam Cosmological Proof of God - Premises and Conclusion repudiated 6/11/14, includes Laws of nature from God ?
Proof of God from Big Bang 9/8/13
Proof of God from Morality 5/27/14
Proof of God from Origin of Life - 9/2/13
Proof of God through Design 8/20/13
Proof of God from Design Part 2 or Disproof of Evolution 1/18/16
Proof of God from Ontological Argument 12/24/2017
Proof Of God from Mathematics (including William Lane Craig) 12/15/2020
Miscellaneous
Psalms, Ancient Near East Texts, Prayer, Science March 22, 2018
Science and Leaps of Faith 8/6/2018
Saul, The Witch, and the Ghost 7/21/16 - Tenach belief in ghosts, witches. Do we go up or down after we die ?
Tree Animism in the Bible 1/1/15
Bible Patriarch Ages 8/2/13
Origins of some Torah/Bible laws and the Jewish Chosen People Idea 7/10/14
Moshe became horny and suspicion of Torah from Mount Sinai 9/5/13
Yahweh, Mountain and or Warrior and or BloodThirsty gods 4/30/2019
The Danger of Census Taking and the Tenach 12/23/2019
Genetic Fallacy and Religion' and God Origins 1/25/2020
Corona Virus and The God Virus 3/14/2020
I am providing several Indexes of the Posts.
Index of of most or all the Posts in Alphabetical Order - I think I have the correct dates, otherwise use the second index below to locate a post.
Ancient Texts and gods July 29, 2018
Bible Patriarch Ages 8/2/13
Circumcision and Maimonides 3/18/14
Corona Virus and The God Virus 3/14/2020
"Cut Off" in the Bible 2/27/14
Every Life Is On Fire How Thermodynamics Explains The Origins Of Life by Jeremy England 2020 - book review 10/16/2020
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some notes on Maimonides Part 2 3/18/14
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some notes on Maimonides Part 3 3/19/14
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some notes on Maimonides Part 4 6/30/14
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some notes on Maimonides Part I 3/18/14
Genesis and Evolution 9/27/13
Genesis and the Big Bang 9/10/13
Genetic Fallacy and Religion' and God Origins 1/25/2020
Historicity Of Purim, Origins of Purim 3/17/2019
Human Sacrifice in the Bible 1/14/14
Human Sacrifice in the Bible Part 2 3/2/16
Human Sacrifice ? in the Bible Part 3 8/23/16
Jewish Oral Law Part 3, Treatment of Heretics 10/16/16
Jewish Oral Law Part 4, Demons 11/13/16
Jewish Oral Tradition - Part 1 - Introduction 8/27/16
Jewish Oral Tradition Part 2, Treatment of Women 9/9/16
Kalam Cosmological Proof of God - Premises and Conclusion repudiated 6/11/14
Kalam Cosmological proof of God repudiated by Theology 2/16/14
Kuzari post are located in first index.
Moshe became horny and suspicion of TMS 9/5/13
Origins of some Torah/Bible laws and the Jewish Chosen People Idea 7/10/14
Pascal's Wager 12/27/17
Passover Origins; & short note on Human Sacrifice 11/11/13
Proof of God based on Claim of Prophecy of Nazis in the Talmud 11/26/14
Proof of God Burden 5/27/17
Proof of God from Big Bang 9/8/13
Proof of God from Circumcision 9/4/13
Proof of God from Coincidences in Bible and Hebrew Part One 11/3/15
Proof of God from Coincidences in the Bible and Hebrew Part 2 11/4/15
Proof of God from Design Part 2 or Disproof of Evolution 1/18/16
Proof of God from Fine Tuning Part I 1/16/15
Fine Tuning Argument (Part II) - Using Probability or Chance 1/16/2019
Fine Tuning Argument (Part III) - Using Probability or Chance 1/20/2019
Fine Tuning Argument (Part IV) 3/31/2019
Fine Tuning Argument (Part V) 1/2/2025
Proof of God from Free Will, Justice, Consciousness, BLANK 8/4/15
Proof of God from Gaza Rockets 8/5/14
Proof of God from Gematria 9/4/13
Proof of God From Gematria 7/23/13
Proof of God from Guarantees or Holy Sage Statements 1/27/15
Proof of God From Guarantees Or Holy Sage Statements Part Two 9/23/17
Proof of God from Hebrew 5/15/15
Proof of God from Israel 1/28/15
Proof of God from Kosher Animals Part 2 1/12/14
Proof of God from Kosher Animals Part One 1/10/14
Proof of God from Life; Genesis 2:7 8/27/16
Proof of God from Miracles (Part 1) or Kuzari Argument Part 9 12/26/15
Proof of God from Miracles (part 2) or Kuzari Argument Part 15 12/31/17
Proof of God from Morality Part One 5/27/14
Proof of God From Morality Part Two 6/18/15
Proof of God from Mummy 10/14/15
Proof of God From Number of Stars in Talmud 5/7/2020
Proof of God from Ontological Argument 12/24/17
Proof of God from Origin of Life 9/2/13
Proof of God from Mathematics (including William Lane Craig) 12/15/2020
Proof of God from Prayer- Miraculous Recoveries-Rain etc: 7/12/15
Proof Of God From Prophecy Part 4 4/23/2019
Proof Of God From Prophecy Part Three 10/15/2018
Proof of God From Prophecy Part 2 6/27/18
Proof of God from Prophecy (Part 1) 1/27/15
Proof of God from Purim Fest 1946 or Prophecy of Nazis in Megillah 3/17/15
Proof of God from Secrets in Holy Texts 5/16/14
Proof of God From Secrets In Holy Texts Part Two (Dead Stars) 3/22/18
Proof of God from the Gaps, Sherlock Holmes, and Absence of Evidence 3/10/16
Proof of God from Thermodynamics 12/19/15
Proof of God through Design (Part One) ? 8/20/13
Proof of God via Jewish Survival, Jewish Suffering, and the Bible Predictor 8/12/13
Proof of God via Jewish Survival, Jewish Suffering, and the Bible Predictor (Part Two) ? 2/21/16
Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow Part One 11/25/14
Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow Part Three 11/25/14
Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow Part Two 11/25/14
Psalms, Ancient Near East Texts, Prayer, Science 3/21/18
Rabbi Kelemen Permission To Receive - Unusually Ethical Jews 4/29/18
Sabbath, Day Seven and Moon Cults or Fertility Cults 8/18/13
Saul, The Witch, and the Ghost 7/21/16
Schroeder The Science of God - Chapter 4 12/29/2014
Schroeder The Science of God - Chapter 3 - section 2A 12/23/14
Schroeder The Science of God - Chapter 3 - section 2A 12/23/14
Schroeder The Science of God Chapter 3 - section one 12/16/14
Schroeder The Science of God Chapter Four 12/29/14
Science and Leaps of Faith 8/6/2018
Some Reasons to Reject Orthodox Judaism 4/2/14
'Statute Forever' in the Bible 3/2/14
Sukkos Feast of Tabernacles Pagan Parallels 10/17/17
Suspected Adultery and the Bible Remedy 1/18/14
The Bible Serpent and Magic 2/26/15
The Bible, the Brother, and the Widow 2/4/14
The Bible, The Husband, and The Virgin 2/3/14
The Bible, The Priests, The Female and the Disabled 2/17/14
The Challenge Of Creation - Rabbi Slifkin - Part One 11/19/16
The Challenge Of Creation - Rabbi Slifkin - Part Three 11/22/16
The Challenge Of Creation - Rabbi Slifkin - Part Two 11/20/16
The Challenge of Noah, Part One 11/3/16
The Challenge of Noah, Part Two 11/3/16
The Danger of Census Taking and the Tenach 12/23/2019
The Dangers of Circumcision as found in the Talmud 1/15/14
The Science of God - Schroeder 1997 Part 1 12/9/13
The Science of God - Schroeder Chapter 1 12/9/14
The Science of God - Schroeder Chapter 2 12/14/14
The Science of God - Schroeder Part 3 12/21/13
The Science of God - Schroeder Part 5 12/26/13
The Science of God Schroeder - Part 2 12/16/13
The Science of God Schroeder Part 4 12/24/13
The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs - Fundamentalism and the Fear of Truth 11/29/14
The Torah Scapegoat Azazel 10/22/13
Tree Animism in the Bible 1/1/15
Who Wrote the Bible Part One 12/10/15
Who Wrote The Bible Part Three 9/16/16
Who Wrote the Bible Part Two 8/14/16
Yahweh, Mountain and or Warrior and or BloodThirsty gods 4/30/2019
Yom Kippur Origins 10/27/13
List of Posts By Date
▼ 2025 (1)
▼ January (1)
Proof of God From Fine Tuning Part V
2024 (1)
▼ May (1)
Kuzari Argument Part 27 Palestinian Genocide Claim
▼ 2022 (1)
▼ February (1)
Kuzari Argument Part 26 National Experiential Tradition
▼ 2021 (2)
▼ December (2)
Kuzari Argument Part 26 National Experiential Tradition
Kuzari Argument Part 25 - National Experiential Tradition - Armenian Genocide
Kuzari Argument Part 24 Uyghurs
▼ 2020 (4)
▼ December (1)
Proof of God from Mathematics (including William Lane Craig
▼ October (1)
Every Life Is On Fire How Thermodynamics Explains .
▼ May (1)
Proof of God From Number of Stars in Talmud
▼ March (1)
Corona Virus and The God Virus
▼ January (1)
Genetic Fallacy and Religion' and God Origins
▼ 2019 (7)
▼ December (1)
The Danger of Census Taking and the Tenach
▼ April (3)
Yahweh, Mountain and or Warrior and or BloodThirsty gods
Kuzari Argument Part 23 or Proof of God from Miracles Part 3
Proof of God from Prophecy Part 4
▼ March (3)
Fine Tuning Argument (Part IV)
Kuzari Argument Part 22 or Miracle Of Sun Part 13c- Rabbi Gottlieb Review
Historicity of Purim, Origins of Purim
▼ January (2)
Fine Tuning Argument (Part III) - Using Probability or Chance Fine Tuning Argument (Part II) - Using Probability...
▼ 2018 (13)
▼ October (1)
Proof Of God From Prophecy Part 3
▼ August (1)
Science and Leap of Faith
▼ July (1)
Ancient Texts and gods
▼ June (1)
Proof of God From Prophecy Part 2
▼ April (5)
Rabbi Kelemen Permission To Receive - Unusually Et...
Kuzari Argument Part 21 Rabbi Kelemen Bomb
Kuzari Argument Part 20 Rabbi Kelemen Incunabular ...
Kuzari argument Part 19 plus some Critique Rabbi K...
Kuzari Part 18 Unbroken Chain ?, Hints For Rabbi K...
▼ March (4)
Kuzari Argument Part 17 - Apple White Theorem, Rab...
Kuzari Argument Part 16 - Permission To Receive R...
Proof of God From Secrets In Holy Texts Part Two (...
Psalms, Ancient Near East Texts, Prayer, Science
▼ 2017 (11)
▼ December (3)
Proof of God from Miracles (part 2) or Kuzari Argu...
Pascal's Wager
Proof of God from Ontological Argument
▼ October (2)
Kuzari Principle or Argument Part 14
Sukkos Feast of Tabernacles Pagan Parallels
▼ September (1)
Proof of God From Guarantees Or Holy Sage Statemen...
▼ August (1)
Kuzari Part 13 Miracle of the Sun continued
▼ June (2)
Kuzari Argument Part 13
Kuzari Argument Part 12
▼ May (2)
INDEX OF POSTS BY CATEGORY
Proof of God Burden
▼ 2016 (18)
▼ November (6)
The Challenge Of Creation - Rabbi Slifkin - Part T...
The Challenge Of Creation - Rabbi Slifkin - Part T...
The Challenge Of Creation - Rabbi Slifkin - Part O...
Jewish Oral Law Part 4, Demons
The Challenge of Noah, Part Two
The Challenge of Noah, Part One
▼ October (1)
Jewish Oral Law Part 3, Treatment of Heretics
▼ September (2)
Who Wrote The Bible Part Three
Jewish Oral Tradition Part 2, Treatment of Women
▼ August (4)
Proof of God from Life; Genesis 2:7
Jewish Oral Tradition - Part 1 - Introduction
Human Sacrifice ? in the Bible Part 3
Who Wrote the Bible Part Two
▼ July (1)
Saul, The Witch, and the Ghost
▼ March (2)
Proof of God from the Gaps, Sherlock Holmes, and A...
Human Sacrifice in the Bible Part 2
▼ February (1)
Proof of God via Jewish Survival, Jewish Suffering...
▼ January (1)
Proof of God from Design Part 2 or Disproof of Ev...
▼ 2015 (23)
▼ December (5)
Kuzari Part 11
Kuzari Argument Part 10
Proof of God from Miracles (Part 1) or Kuzari Argu...
Proof of God from Thermodynamics
Who Wrote the Bible Part One
▼ November (4)
Kuzari Argument Part 8
Kuzari Argument Part 7
Proof of God from Coincidences in the Bible and He...
Proof of God from Coincidences in Bible and Hebrew...
▼ October (1)
Proof of God from Mummy
▼ September (1)
Kuzari Argument Part 6
▼ August (2)
Kuzari Part 5
Proof of God from Free Will, Justice, Consciousnes...
▼ July (1)
Proof of God from Prayer- Miraculous Recoveries-Ra...
▼ June (1)
Proof of God From Morality Part Two
▼ May (1)
Proof of God from Hebrew
▼ March (1)
Proof of God from Purim Fest 1946 or Prophecy of N...
▼ February (1)
The Bible Serpent and Magic
▼ January (5)
Proof of God from Israel
Proof of God from Prophecy (Part 1)
Proof of God from Guarantees or Holy Sage Statemen...
Proof of God from Fine Tuning
Tree Animism in the Bible
▼ 2014 (35)
▼ December (5)
Schroeder The Science of God Chapter Four
Schroeder The Science of God - Chapter 3 - section...
Schroeder The Science of God Chapter 3 - section ...
The Science of God - Schroeder Chapter 2
The Science of God - Schroeder Chapter 1
▼ November (5)
The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs - Fundamental...
Proof of God based on Claim of Prophecy of Nazis ...
Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow Part One
Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow Part Two
Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow Part Three...
▼ August (1)
Proof of God from Gaza Rockets
▼ July (2)
Kuzari Argument Part 4
Origins of some Torah/Bible laws and the Jewish Ch...
▼ June (3)
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some...
Kuzari Part 3
Kalam Cosmological Proof of God - Premises and Con...
▼ May (2)
Proof of God from Morality Part One
Proof of God from Secrets in Holy Texts
▼ April (1)
Some Reasons to Reject Orthodox Judaism
▼ March (5)
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some...
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some...
Circumcision and Maimonides
Explanations of Pagan Customs in Judaism with some...
'Statute Forever' in the Bible
▼ February (5)
'Cut Off" in the Bible
The Bible, The Priests, The Female and the Disable...
Kalam Cosmological proof of God repudiated by Theo...
The Bible, the Brother, and the Widow
The Bible, The Husband, and The Virgin
▼ January (6)
Kuzari argument part 2
Suspected Adultery and the Bible Remedy
The Dangers of Circumcision as found in the Talmud...
Human Sacrifice in the Bible
Proof of God from Kosher Animals Part 2
Proof of God from Kosher Animals Part One
▼ 2013 (23)
▼ December (5)
The Science of God - Schroeder Part 5
The Science of God Schroeder Part 4
The Science of God - Schroeder Part 3
The Science of God Schroeder - Part 2
The Science of God - Schroeder 1997 Part 1
▼ November (1)
Passover Origins; & short note on Human Sacrifice
▼ October (2)
Yom Kippur Origins
The Torah Scapegoat
▼ September (7)
Genesis and Evolution
Genesis and the Big Bang
Proof of God from Big Bang
Moshe became horny and suspicion of TMS
Proof of God from Circumcision
Proof of God from Gematria
Proof of God from Origin of Life
▼ August (5)
Proof of God through Design (Part One) ?
Sabbath, Day Seven and Moon Cults or Fertility Cul...
Proof of God via Jewish Survival, Jewish Suffering...
Circumcision by the Jews on the eighth day of life...
Bible Patriarch Ages
▼ July (3)
Kuzari Principle or Argument Part I
Gematria
Saturday, December 26, 2015
Proof of God from Miracles (Part 1) or Kuzari Argument Part 9
Update thru 8/6/2018 3/19/2020
When writing this post I was not sure to label it Kuzari Part 9 or Proof of God from Miracles because there is overlap. Hence the combined title of the post.
It may be helpful to skim my Kuzari posts first begun here
When very young in Yeshiva learning the Bible about all the open miracles G-d allegedly wrought on behalf of his chosen people it was almost like a proof of G-d. We had a tradition of those miracles occurring, so they must of happened right ? Plus, G-d he could do anything right ?
But even when quite young there was this nagging doubt - why did all these open miracles only happen in ancient times ?
Some religious people argue - but there are miracles still to be observed - like the birth of a child. But those sort of examples are not what a miracle is supposed to represent, something unnatural. Nor do they alleviate my doubt why no open miracles in more recent times. {ETA 3/19/2020 - If there are no supernatural agents active in our sphere, then we would not observe miracles. If there were supernatural agents active in our sphere we should be able to detect their involvement, but we have not been able to do so. The lack of observation of supernatural involvement in our sphere supports the notion that there are no supernatural agents active in our sphere.}
Some religious people then argue but G-d does do miracles for the Jews - events such as see my posts Proof of God From Gaza rockets or the Proof of God From of Israel also Proof of God from Prophecy (includes some Israel discussion) . My previous posts explain why such events are not convincing and in addition they are not open miracles. Related discussion is also found in my post Proof of God from Miraculous Recoveries...
Religious people then resort to apologetics why G-d does not perform miracles anymore. I do not find the excuses convincing.
If an open miracle could be established to have occurred beyond a shadow of a doubt I would be open to something beyond known nature exists. For example, if under scientifically controlled conditions a ‘man’ can successfully walk on water whenever we request it. That would mean the ‘man’ is a person with ‘supernatural powers’ or person able have the supernatural demonstrated thru him or an alien with powers we have no knowledge of.
So in a way even a bonafide miracle would only prove something beyond our known experience and knowledge is occurring. It may not be supernatural being(s). It may be super technological sophisticated alien beings - a better explanation than supernatural beings. But to many people the aliens would appear as ‘gods’.
Later in this post, Hume provides an example of a type of a miracle that needs to be discussed in relation to the Exodus stories. This post will also be citing some of Spinoza on Miracles. As Spinoza will demonstrate we must be careful when reading the Bible stories, that they should not be taken at face value. Also, ancient documents like Bible, were not meant to be ‘history’ as we understand the term today. They had theological, economical, local and international political purposes. Many Ancient Near East cultures would ascribe events, including natural events to the will of the God(s) - the ancient Jews being no different.
Based on Hume’s discussion of Miracles
Our everyday experience shows nature operates according to certain ‘laws’ of nature with a very high probability ( arguably 100%, since we are aware of no violation of the ‘laws’ of nature as science now understands those laws). We read about miracles in ancient texts and sometimes from reports of living witnesses or stories relayed to us by people. Yet we know there is a probability of error, a high probability of error within those ancient texts, living witnesses and stories relayed to us.
We may compare the probability of the ‘laws’ of nature of being violated versus the probability of the testimony of miracles being in error. We find the probability of the former being much less than the probability of the latter, so we reject the testimony of miracles.
Does this mean Hume intends we never accept testimony of ‘miracles’ ? Does not Hume himself propose we accept miracles under certain circumstances ? Later I will propose an answer.
I will not be citing all of Hume’s reasons and arguments to reject miracles, the interested may read his books - for example An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding, from which the following is extracted from Section X - Of Miracles. All the following are quotes from Hume. I urge the reader to read every word of Hume carefully.
“...That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish...”
[We hear a story of a Priest turning a stick into a snake.
Could the story be false ? Would it be miraculous if the story was false ? What would be more miraculous the stick turning into a snake or the story being false ? ]
“For first, there is not to be found, in all history, any miracle attested by a sufficient number of men, of such unquestioned good-sense, education, and learning, as to secure us against all delusion in themselves; of such undoubted integrity, as to place them beyond all suspicion of any design to deceive others; of such credit and reputation in the eyes of mankind, as to have a great deal to lose in case of their being detected in any falsehood; and at the same time, attesting facts, performed in such a public manner, and in so celebrated a part of the world, as to render the
detection unavoidable: All which circumstances are requisite to give us a full assurance in the testimony of men.”
[ Lets begin to apply Hume’s criteria to the Bible miracles. Do we know there a sufficient number of men witnessing the miracles ? No. We only have a story in a book alleging a certain number of men. Were they unbiased ? No. Educated enough ? No. Anything to gain by the stories ? Yes. Was it public enough ? No. It was in a desert hidden from view from everybody except the very people making the claim they are chosen by God. More can be written, but enough has been said.]
[And here comes Hume’s alleged loophole to accept a miracle.]
“I [Hume] beg the limitations here made may be remarked, when I say, that a miracle can never be proved, so as to be the foundation of a system of religion. For I own, that otherwise, there may possibly be miracles, or violations of the usual course of nature, of such a kind as to admit of proof from human testimony; though, perhaps, it will be impossible to find any such in all the records of history. Thus, suppose, all authors, in all languages, agree, that, from the first of January 1600, there was a total darkness over the whole earth for eight days: Suppose that the tradition of this extraordinary event is still strong and lively among the people: That all travellers, who return from foreign countries, bring us accounts of the same tradition, without the least variation or contradiction: It is evident, that our present philosophers, instead of doubting the fact, ought to receive it as certain, and ought to search for the causes whence it might be derived. The decay, corruption, and dissolution of nature, is an event rendered probable by so many analogies, that any phaenomenon, which seems to have a tendency towards that catastrophe, comes within the reach of human testimony, if that testimony be very extensive and uniform.”
[Does this mean Hume would accept the ‘dark’ event as a miracle ? He seems to hedge by writing we may accept the event has having happened, but the cause needs to be researched. Anyway, would the Exodus stories qualify for an ‘acceptable’ miracle(s) ala Hume ? NO. He goes on to explain.]
“Here then we are first to consider a book [Bible], presented to us by a barbarous and ignorant people, written in an age when they were still more barbarous, and in all probability long after the facts which it relates, corroborated by no concurring testimony, and resembling those fabulous accounts, which every nation gives of its origin. Upon reading this book, we find it full of prodigies and miracles. It gives an account of a state of the world and of human nature entirely different from the present: Of our fall from that state: Of the age of man, extended to near a thousand years: Of the destruction of the world by a deluge: Of the arbitrary choice of one people, as the favourites of heaven; and that people the countrymen of the author: Of their deliverance from bondage by prodigies the most astonishing imaginable: I desire any one to lay his hand upon his heart, and after a serious consideration declare, whether he thinks that the falsehood of such a book, supported by such a testimony, would be more extraordinary and miraculous than all the miracles it relates; which is, however, necessary to make it be received, according to the measures of probability above established.”
[Hume was aware of the Exodus stories and rejects them. And for good reason. Those Kuzari proponents who think they have an ally in Hume are grossly in error.]
[ To paraphrase some other reasons Hume rejects miracles include: people’s propensity for wonder, surprise and the love of the tale. Also, the unreliability of the witnesses of the miracles who are ignorant and not skeptical enough. Also, the numerous miracles found amongst Hindus, Muslims, pagans etc: etc: opposes the miracles in a single other religion say Christianity. The Christian will probably argue all those other miracles from religions and pagans are all false for one reason or another, unreliable for one reason or another or perhaps some were real but done by Satan or even done by God for them. But our Christian miracles are reliable. Can you hear the Hindus or Muslims responding in kind ? Convinced ? ]
[ How should people react to the initial Atom Bomb dropping on Hiroshima during WWII ? Should the event been rejected using Hume ? First, I think this event would more or less qualify under Hume's hedge - and thus using Hume we should let the experts research. Second, Einstein and other scientists already thought an Atom Bomb was consistent with science, so there would be no good reason for people to reject the Atom Bomb story even if nothing like it ever occurred, even according to Hume. Third, there is nothing in Hume's argument that prevents us from accepting further discovery of 'new' "laws of nature" or the clarification of 'known' "laws of nature".]
[Does Hume apriori assume miracles are impossible ? I do not think so. Rather, the core of his argument is probabilistic. Today we do not observe 'miracles' and we have 'laws of nature' say like gravity. We have a story of a man walking on water. What is more likely a true miracle has occurred or the 'law of gravity' has been not violated ?
If you assume a supernatural being exists then you may argue that being can violate the 'law of gravity', and so walking on water is not unlikely. This is an admission that stories of miracles can not be used to 'prove' a supernatural being. In other words, you have to assume or otherwise prove that (1) a supernatural being exists and (2) it can violate the 'law of gravity'. Then it can be argued a story of a miracle is not so improbable as the Hume style argument claims.]
Based on Spinoza’s discussion of Miracles
I have mentioned Spinoza several times on my blog; he was perhaps the first Bible Philosopher to help break the bondage of my mind. We will consider Spinoza's discussion on Miracles http://sacred-texts.com/phi/spinoza/treat/tpt10.htm as found in A Theologico-Political Treatise, by Benedict de Spinoza
[We have good reason to believe the ancient Israelites were predisposed to believe in the supernatural. Confounding the situation is even natural occurrences amongst ancient peoples, including the ancient Israelites are attributed to the supernatural. So for example, if the ancient Israelites are wandering in the desert and a flock of quail happen to come their way (Exodus 16:13) they would attribute it to supernatural. Or if water issues from a rock (Exodus 17:6) that could be ascribed to supernatural. Even today many Jews attribute everyday events and the most mundane coincidences to the working of G-d.]
Here are some relevant highlights but see Spinoza for more support and examples for his contentions. I urge the reader to read every word of Spinoza carefully:
(5) In fact, the common people can only adore God, and refer all things to His power by removing natural causes, and conceiving things happening out of their due course, and only admires the power of God when the power of nature is conceived of as in subjection to it.
(6) This idea seems to have taken its rise among the early Jews who saw the Gentiles round them worshipping visible gods such as the sun, the moon, the earth, water, air, &c., and in order to inspire the conviction that such divinities were weak and inconstant, or changeable, told how they themselves were under the sway of an invisible God, and narrated their miracles, trying further to show that the God whom they worshipped arranged the whole of nature for their sole benefit: this idea was so pleasing to humanity that men go on to this day imagining miracles, so that they may believe themselves God's favourites, and the final cause for which God created and directs all things.
(7) What pretension will not people in their folly advance!....
(68) In Psalm cv. 24 it is said that God changed the hearts of the Egyptians, so that they hated the Israelites. (69) This was evidently a natural change, as appears from Exodus, chap.i., where we find no slight reason for the Egyptians reducing the Israelites to slavery....
(74) If, therefore, events are found in the Bible which we cannot refer to their causes, nay, which seem entirely to contradict the order of nature, we must not come to a stand, but assuredly believe that whatever did really happen happened naturally. (75) This view is confirmed by the fact that in the case of every miracle there were many attendant circumstances, though these were not always related, especially where the narrative was of a poetic character....
The circumstances of the miracles clearly show, I maintain, that natural causes were needed. (77) For instance, in order to infect the Egyptians with blains, it was necessary that Moses should scatter ashes in the air (Exod. ix: 10); the locusts also came upon the land of Egypt by a command of God in accordance with nature, namely, by an east wind blowing for a whole day and night; and they departed by a very strong west wind (Exod. x:14, 19). (78) By a similar Divine mandate the sea opened a way for the Jews (Exo. xiv:21), namely, by an east wind which blew very strongly all night...
(81) Wherefore we may believe that, although the circumstances attending miracles are not related always or in full detail, yet a miracle was never performed without them....
(82) This is confirmed by Exodus xiv:27, where it is simply stated that "Moses stretched forth his hand, and the waters of the sea returned to their strength in the morning," no mention being made of a wind; but in the song of Moses (Exod. xv:10) we read, "Thou didst blow with Thy wind (i.e. with a very strong wind), and the sea covered them." (83) Thus the attendant circumstance is omitted in the history, and the miracle is thereby enhanced...
I have shown that Scripture does not explain things by their secondary causes, but only narrates them in the order and the style which has most power to move men, and especially uneducated men, to devotion; and therefore it speaks inaccurately of God and of events, seeing that its object is not to convince the reason, but to attract and lay hold of the imagination....
Lastly, in order to understand, in the case of miracles, what actually took place, we ought to be familiar with Jewish phrases and metaphors; anyone who did not make sufficient allowance for these, would be continually seeing miracles in Scripture where nothing of the kind is intended by the writer; he would thus miss the knowledge not only of what actually happened, but also of the mind of the writers of the sacred text. (106) For instance, Zechariah speaking of some future war says (chap. xiv;7): "It shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night; but at even time it shall be light." In these words he seems to predict a great miracle, yet he only means that the battle will be doubtful the whole day, that the issue will be known only to God, but that in the evening they will gain the victory: the prophets frequently used to predict victories and defeats of the nations in similar phrases...
In this way many occurrences in the Bible are to be regarded merely as Jewish expressions. (112) There is no need for me to go through them in detail; but I will call attention generally to the fact that the Jews employed such phrases not only rhetorically, but also, and indeed chiefly, from devotional motives. (113) Such is the reason for the substitution of "bless God" for "curse God" in 1 Kings xxi:10, and Job ii:9, and for all things being referred to God, whence it appears that the Bible seems to relate nothing but miracles, even when speaking of the most ordinary occurrences, as in the examples given above."
[It has been a long time since I studied Spinoza who wrote in the 1600's. His words still ring so true and are a breathe of fresh air.]
[There have been some scholars who have assumed some kernel of truth in the Bible stories and have used the Bible to provide clues of natural causes and thus derive some natural explanation of what may have occurred. For example - explanations of manna have ranged from various sorts of mushroom, insect, insect secretion, plant, plant secretions. So did actual miracles actually happen in the Exodus, or were natural occurring events attributed to G-d ? Even the Sinai revelation could refer a storm/ earthquake/volcano or some combination thereof.
Some may object that a natural explanation can not account for all the miraculous details of manna such as a double quantity falling the day before the Sabbath. However, those details may be later embellishments to stress Sabbath observance.
From the book The Bible As History by Werner Keller second revised edition 1995 Barnes and Noble beginning on page 124 the Egyptian Plagues still occur:
1) Bloody Nile - could be deposits from Absssinian lake which color flood waters making it look like blood.
2) At flood times - frogs, fleas can become plagues. Lice attack in swarms.
3) Nile Heat/Nile Itch the rash often develops into spreading ulcers,
4) Hail storms - rare in Nile, but can occur.
5) Locust swarms are typical.
6) Darkness - hot wind whirls up sand and block sun. Called the Simoon/Khamsin
7) Death of children ?
Page 128 Exodus 16 discusses Quails - same thing happens today - bird migration route from Africa to Europe across the Red Sea. Exhausted they land on it's shores. Even today Bedouins in the area catch quails there.]]
{ETA In the same book Werner Keller discusses the "miracle" in Exodus 17 and Numbers 20 - Moses strikes a rock and water flows. Werner provides an actual example from the 30's. Major Jarvis witnessed the Sinai Camel Corps striking a rock and getting water to flow ! Werner believes that Moses learned the method from the Midianites.}
{ETA 1/2/2018 Part two of the proof from miracles is here }
Continued Kuzari Argument Part 10
When writing this post I was not sure to label it Kuzari Part 9 or Proof of God from Miracles because there is overlap. Hence the combined title of the post.
It may be helpful to skim my Kuzari posts first begun here
When very young in Yeshiva learning the Bible about all the open miracles G-d allegedly wrought on behalf of his chosen people it was almost like a proof of G-d. We had a tradition of those miracles occurring, so they must of happened right ? Plus, G-d he could do anything right ?
But even when quite young there was this nagging doubt - why did all these open miracles only happen in ancient times ?
Some religious people argue - but there are miracles still to be observed - like the birth of a child. But those sort of examples are not what a miracle is supposed to represent, something unnatural. Nor do they alleviate my doubt why no open miracles in more recent times. {ETA 3/19/2020 - If there are no supernatural agents active in our sphere, then we would not observe miracles. If there were supernatural agents active in our sphere we should be able to detect their involvement, but we have not been able to do so. The lack of observation of supernatural involvement in our sphere supports the notion that there are no supernatural agents active in our sphere.}
Some religious people then argue but G-d does do miracles for the Jews - events such as see my posts Proof of God From Gaza rockets or the Proof of God From of Israel also Proof of God from Prophecy (includes some Israel discussion) . My previous posts explain why such events are not convincing and in addition they are not open miracles. Related discussion is also found in my post Proof of God from Miraculous Recoveries...
Religious people then resort to apologetics why G-d does not perform miracles anymore. I do not find the excuses convincing.
If an open miracle could be established to have occurred beyond a shadow of a doubt I would be open to something beyond known nature exists. For example, if under scientifically controlled conditions a ‘man’ can successfully walk on water whenever we request it. That would mean the ‘man’ is a person with ‘supernatural powers’ or person able have the supernatural demonstrated thru him or an alien with powers we have no knowledge of.
So in a way even a bonafide miracle would only prove something beyond our known experience and knowledge is occurring. It may not be supernatural being(s). It may be super technological sophisticated alien beings - a better explanation than supernatural beings. But to many people the aliens would appear as ‘gods’.
Later in this post, Hume provides an example of a type of a miracle that needs to be discussed in relation to the Exodus stories. This post will also be citing some of Spinoza on Miracles. As Spinoza will demonstrate we must be careful when reading the Bible stories, that they should not be taken at face value. Also, ancient documents like Bible, were not meant to be ‘history’ as we understand the term today. They had theological, economical, local and international political purposes. Many Ancient Near East cultures would ascribe events, including natural events to the will of the God(s) - the ancient Jews being no different.
Based on Hume’s discussion of Miracles
Our everyday experience shows nature operates according to certain ‘laws’ of nature with a very high probability ( arguably 100%, since we are aware of no violation of the ‘laws’ of nature as science now understands those laws). We read about miracles in ancient texts and sometimes from reports of living witnesses or stories relayed to us by people. Yet we know there is a probability of error, a high probability of error within those ancient texts, living witnesses and stories relayed to us.
We may compare the probability of the ‘laws’ of nature of being violated versus the probability of the testimony of miracles being in error. We find the probability of the former being much less than the probability of the latter, so we reject the testimony of miracles.
Does this mean Hume intends we never accept testimony of ‘miracles’ ? Does not Hume himself propose we accept miracles under certain circumstances ? Later I will propose an answer.
I will not be citing all of Hume’s reasons and arguments to reject miracles, the interested may read his books - for example An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding, from which the following is extracted from Section X - Of Miracles. All the following are quotes from Hume. I urge the reader to read every word of Hume carefully.
“...That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish...”
[We hear a story of a Priest turning a stick into a snake.
Could the story be false ? Would it be miraculous if the story was false ? What would be more miraculous the stick turning into a snake or the story being false ? ]
“For first, there is not to be found, in all history, any miracle attested by a sufficient number of men, of such unquestioned good-sense, education, and learning, as to secure us against all delusion in themselves; of such undoubted integrity, as to place them beyond all suspicion of any design to deceive others; of such credit and reputation in the eyes of mankind, as to have a great deal to lose in case of their being detected in any falsehood; and at the same time, attesting facts, performed in such a public manner, and in so celebrated a part of the world, as to render the
detection unavoidable: All which circumstances are requisite to give us a full assurance in the testimony of men.”
[ Lets begin to apply Hume’s criteria to the Bible miracles. Do we know there a sufficient number of men witnessing the miracles ? No. We only have a story in a book alleging a certain number of men. Were they unbiased ? No. Educated enough ? No. Anything to gain by the stories ? Yes. Was it public enough ? No. It was in a desert hidden from view from everybody except the very people making the claim they are chosen by God. More can be written, but enough has been said.]
[And here comes Hume’s alleged loophole to accept a miracle.]
“I [Hume] beg the limitations here made may be remarked, when I say, that a miracle can never be proved, so as to be the foundation of a system of religion. For I own, that otherwise, there may possibly be miracles, or violations of the usual course of nature, of such a kind as to admit of proof from human testimony; though, perhaps, it will be impossible to find any such in all the records of history. Thus, suppose, all authors, in all languages, agree, that, from the first of January 1600, there was a total darkness over the whole earth for eight days: Suppose that the tradition of this extraordinary event is still strong and lively among the people: That all travellers, who return from foreign countries, bring us accounts of the same tradition, without the least variation or contradiction: It is evident, that our present philosophers, instead of doubting the fact, ought to receive it as certain, and ought to search for the causes whence it might be derived. The decay, corruption, and dissolution of nature, is an event rendered probable by so many analogies, that any phaenomenon, which seems to have a tendency towards that catastrophe, comes within the reach of human testimony, if that testimony be very extensive and uniform.”
[Does this mean Hume would accept the ‘dark’ event as a miracle ? He seems to hedge by writing we may accept the event has having happened, but the cause needs to be researched. Anyway, would the Exodus stories qualify for an ‘acceptable’ miracle(s) ala Hume ? NO. He goes on to explain.]
“Here then we are first to consider a book [Bible], presented to us by a barbarous and ignorant people, written in an age when they were still more barbarous, and in all probability long after the facts which it relates, corroborated by no concurring testimony, and resembling those fabulous accounts, which every nation gives of its origin. Upon reading this book, we find it full of prodigies and miracles. It gives an account of a state of the world and of human nature entirely different from the present: Of our fall from that state: Of the age of man, extended to near a thousand years: Of the destruction of the world by a deluge: Of the arbitrary choice of one people, as the favourites of heaven; and that people the countrymen of the author: Of their deliverance from bondage by prodigies the most astonishing imaginable: I desire any one to lay his hand upon his heart, and after a serious consideration declare, whether he thinks that the falsehood of such a book, supported by such a testimony, would be more extraordinary and miraculous than all the miracles it relates; which is, however, necessary to make it be received, according to the measures of probability above established.”
[Hume was aware of the Exodus stories and rejects them. And for good reason. Those Kuzari proponents who think they have an ally in Hume are grossly in error.]
[ To paraphrase some other reasons Hume rejects miracles include: people’s propensity for wonder, surprise and the love of the tale. Also, the unreliability of the witnesses of the miracles who are ignorant and not skeptical enough. Also, the numerous miracles found amongst Hindus, Muslims, pagans etc: etc: opposes the miracles in a single other religion say Christianity. The Christian will probably argue all those other miracles from religions and pagans are all false for one reason or another, unreliable for one reason or another or perhaps some were real but done by Satan or even done by God for them. But our Christian miracles are reliable. Can you hear the Hindus or Muslims responding in kind ? Convinced ? ]
[ How should people react to the initial Atom Bomb dropping on Hiroshima during WWII ? Should the event been rejected using Hume ? First, I think this event would more or less qualify under Hume's hedge - and thus using Hume we should let the experts research. Second, Einstein and other scientists already thought an Atom Bomb was consistent with science, so there would be no good reason for people to reject the Atom Bomb story even if nothing like it ever occurred, even according to Hume. Third, there is nothing in Hume's argument that prevents us from accepting further discovery of 'new' "laws of nature" or the clarification of 'known' "laws of nature".]
[Does Hume apriori assume miracles are impossible ? I do not think so. Rather, the core of his argument is probabilistic. Today we do not observe 'miracles' and we have 'laws of nature' say like gravity. We have a story of a man walking on water. What is more likely a true miracle has occurred or the 'law of gravity' has been not violated ?
If you assume a supernatural being exists then you may argue that being can violate the 'law of gravity', and so walking on water is not unlikely. This is an admission that stories of miracles can not be used to 'prove' a supernatural being. In other words, you have to assume or otherwise prove that (1) a supernatural being exists and (2) it can violate the 'law of gravity'. Then it can be argued a story of a miracle is not so improbable as the Hume style argument claims.]
Based on Spinoza’s discussion of Miracles
I have mentioned Spinoza several times on my blog; he was perhaps the first Bible Philosopher to help break the bondage of my mind. We will consider Spinoza's discussion on Miracles http://sacred-texts.com/phi/spinoza/treat/tpt10.htm as found in A Theologico-Political Treatise, by Benedict de Spinoza
[We have good reason to believe the ancient Israelites were predisposed to believe in the supernatural. Confounding the situation is even natural occurrences amongst ancient peoples, including the ancient Israelites are attributed to the supernatural. So for example, if the ancient Israelites are wandering in the desert and a flock of quail happen to come their way (Exodus 16:13) they would attribute it to supernatural. Or if water issues from a rock (Exodus 17:6) that could be ascribed to supernatural. Even today many Jews attribute everyday events and the most mundane coincidences to the working of G-d.]
Here are some relevant highlights but see Spinoza for more support and examples for his contentions. I urge the reader to read every word of Spinoza carefully:
(5) In fact, the common people can only adore God, and refer all things to His power by removing natural causes, and conceiving things happening out of their due course, and only admires the power of God when the power of nature is conceived of as in subjection to it.
(6) This idea seems to have taken its rise among the early Jews who saw the Gentiles round them worshipping visible gods such as the sun, the moon, the earth, water, air, &c., and in order to inspire the conviction that such divinities were weak and inconstant, or changeable, told how they themselves were under the sway of an invisible God, and narrated their miracles, trying further to show that the God whom they worshipped arranged the whole of nature for their sole benefit: this idea was so pleasing to humanity that men go on to this day imagining miracles, so that they may believe themselves God's favourites, and the final cause for which God created and directs all things.
(7) What pretension will not people in their folly advance!....
(68) In Psalm cv. 24 it is said that God changed the hearts of the Egyptians, so that they hated the Israelites. (69) This was evidently a natural change, as appears from Exodus, chap.i., where we find no slight reason for the Egyptians reducing the Israelites to slavery....
(74) If, therefore, events are found in the Bible which we cannot refer to their causes, nay, which seem entirely to contradict the order of nature, we must not come to a stand, but assuredly believe that whatever did really happen happened naturally. (75) This view is confirmed by the fact that in the case of every miracle there were many attendant circumstances, though these were not always related, especially where the narrative was of a poetic character....
The circumstances of the miracles clearly show, I maintain, that natural causes were needed. (77) For instance, in order to infect the Egyptians with blains, it was necessary that Moses should scatter ashes in the air (Exod. ix: 10); the locusts also came upon the land of Egypt by a command of God in accordance with nature, namely, by an east wind blowing for a whole day and night; and they departed by a very strong west wind (Exod. x:14, 19). (78) By a similar Divine mandate the sea opened a way for the Jews (Exo. xiv:21), namely, by an east wind which blew very strongly all night...
(81) Wherefore we may believe that, although the circumstances attending miracles are not related always or in full detail, yet a miracle was never performed without them....
(82) This is confirmed by Exodus xiv:27, where it is simply stated that "Moses stretched forth his hand, and the waters of the sea returned to their strength in the morning," no mention being made of a wind; but in the song of Moses (Exod. xv:10) we read, "Thou didst blow with Thy wind (i.e. with a very strong wind), and the sea covered them." (83) Thus the attendant circumstance is omitted in the history, and the miracle is thereby enhanced...
I have shown that Scripture does not explain things by their secondary causes, but only narrates them in the order and the style which has most power to move men, and especially uneducated men, to devotion; and therefore it speaks inaccurately of God and of events, seeing that its object is not to convince the reason, but to attract and lay hold of the imagination....
Lastly, in order to understand, in the case of miracles, what actually took place, we ought to be familiar with Jewish phrases and metaphors; anyone who did not make sufficient allowance for these, would be continually seeing miracles in Scripture where nothing of the kind is intended by the writer; he would thus miss the knowledge not only of what actually happened, but also of the mind of the writers of the sacred text. (106) For instance, Zechariah speaking of some future war says (chap. xiv;7): "It shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night; but at even time it shall be light." In these words he seems to predict a great miracle, yet he only means that the battle will be doubtful the whole day, that the issue will be known only to God, but that in the evening they will gain the victory: the prophets frequently used to predict victories and defeats of the nations in similar phrases...
In this way many occurrences in the Bible are to be regarded merely as Jewish expressions. (112) There is no need for me to go through them in detail; but I will call attention generally to the fact that the Jews employed such phrases not only rhetorically, but also, and indeed chiefly, from devotional motives. (113) Such is the reason for the substitution of "bless God" for "curse God" in 1 Kings xxi:10, and Job ii:9, and for all things being referred to God, whence it appears that the Bible seems to relate nothing but miracles, even when speaking of the most ordinary occurrences, as in the examples given above."
[It has been a long time since I studied Spinoza who wrote in the 1600's. His words still ring so true and are a breathe of fresh air.]
[There have been some scholars who have assumed some kernel of truth in the Bible stories and have used the Bible to provide clues of natural causes and thus derive some natural explanation of what may have occurred. For example - explanations of manna have ranged from various sorts of mushroom, insect, insect secretion, plant, plant secretions. So did actual miracles actually happen in the Exodus, or were natural occurring events attributed to G-d ? Even the Sinai revelation could refer a storm/ earthquake/volcano or some combination thereof.
Some may object that a natural explanation can not account for all the miraculous details of manna such as a double quantity falling the day before the Sabbath. However, those details may be later embellishments to stress Sabbath observance.
From the book The Bible As History by Werner Keller second revised edition 1995 Barnes and Noble beginning on page 124 the Egyptian Plagues still occur:
1) Bloody Nile - could be deposits from Absssinian lake which color flood waters making it look like blood.
2) At flood times - frogs, fleas can become plagues. Lice attack in swarms.
3) Nile Heat/Nile Itch the rash often develops into spreading ulcers,
4) Hail storms - rare in Nile, but can occur.
5) Locust swarms are typical.
6) Darkness - hot wind whirls up sand and block sun. Called the Simoon/Khamsin
7) Death of children ?
Page 128 Exodus 16 discusses Quails - same thing happens today - bird migration route from Africa to Europe across the Red Sea. Exhausted they land on it's shores. Even today Bedouins in the area catch quails there.]]
{ETA In the same book Werner Keller discusses the "miracle" in Exodus 17 and Numbers 20 - Moses strikes a rock and water flows. Werner provides an actual example from the 30's. Major Jarvis witnessed the Sinai Camel Corps striking a rock and getting water to flow ! Werner believes that Moses learned the method from the Midianites.}
{ETA 1/2/2018 Part two of the proof from miracles is here }
Continued Kuzari Argument Part 10
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