Updated thru 3/23/2106 1/2/2018
Part one outlined the argument and provided some critiques. This post will continue the discussion and provide a note on the Kuzari argument.
‘Judaism’ is a very old religion, amongst the oldest surviving. Religions evolved over time. The claim that Orthodox Judaism is essentially the same religion as given at Mt. Sinai is so contrary to every single thing we know about religion, society and culture that it should be treated with the utmost skepticism and rejected outright unless there is overwhelming evidence that it is true.
The Judaism of the ancient Israelites is almost certainly not the same Judaism of any Jewish denomination around today. Even if there was an Avraham Avinu (Abraham), he did not invent a religion from scratch. The idea of gods and how to worship them predate him. Nor did Judaism start at an [alleged] Mt Sinai event since some Torah commands predate it and there was a prior relationship between the Jews and El/Yahweh before that date. The same is true for many other religions, there are probably several African, Asian, North and South Native American religions that have prehistoric roots. Also for example when did Christianity start ? With ‘Jesus’ or with Paul or some other founder ? I would argue no. Christianity had it’s roots in preceeding religions, including Judaism which had it’s roots in etc: The same would apply to Islam.
When some Rabbis advocate the Kuzari argument and claim religions require a giver or founder they are either lying or ignorant. Some religions may have a founder others do not. And ‘Judaism’ has a fare number of potential ‘founders’ as mentioned in my discussion of the Kuzari argument.
{ETA 1/2/2018 I need to add the obvious. Thousands of religions, myths, legends etc; have no known founder. Consider those from native American Indians, African tribes, ancient near east cultures, ancient Europeans etc: etc: }
Here are some old religions from the book Charts of World Religions by H. Wayne House 2006
Chart 8
Hinduism c.1800 BC - founder unknown or none
Zoroastrianism c. 1300 BC founder - Zarathustra
Shinto c. 600 BC founder unknown or none. [However per World Religions MacMillan Compendium page 995 - regarding Shintoism - it has no founder with the exception of several sects. ]
{ETA 3/9/2016 And from the book The Great Religions of the Modern World - E.J. Jurji editor, 1947. Beginning on page 141 - Shintoism lies at the center of an intense nationalism. “For some two thousand years it has furnished an interwoven system of beliefs and ceremonies whereby the Japanese people have dramatized and suported the chief interests of their national life.” IT IS THE ONLY EXAMPLE ON EARTH TODAY OF AN ANCIENT TRIBAL FAITH THAT HAS SURVIVED THE CENTURIES AND LIVED ON INTO THE PRESENT AS THE NATIONAL RELIGION OF A CONTEMPORARY STATE. [my capitals. Does this uniqueness imply Shintoism is true ? Does this prove the Japanese gods/spirits has been protecting the Japanese ?
Shintoism shares some beliefs with Judaism including:]
Immortal Soul,
Divinely ordained national destiny,
Guardianship over the nation by the supernatural - for Shinto it is the eternal ancestral spirits,
Efficacy of Prayer and Offerings
The presence of invisible gods at shrines.}
[ When was ‘Judaism’ founded - Do we begin with the alleged Abraham ? Or the alleged Sinai revelation ? One or more Jewish Kings or perhaps one or more of the Prophets. Perhaps Ezra ? Abraham according to the chart is 2100 BC and the chart uses that period.]
Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world 762 million (chart 58) and Zoroastrianism has 2.5 million followers (chart 79). Both are of comparable age to Judaism.
[Longevity of a religion is not evidence of the truth of the religion.]
From Encyclopedia of Religion and Society 1998 W. Swatos, Jr (Editor)
Page 226 Hinduism has no recorded founder and has sacred text dating back as far as 1500-1200 BCE.
P 571 Zoroastrianism formed in the early part of the first millennium BCE. “The Judeo - Christian Idea of the Devil was borrowed from Zoroastrianism at the time of the [Jewish] Babylonian exile.” [This is what is called evolution of religion. It is one reason ‘Judaism’ survived - the Jews adopted from surrounding cultures and adapts to them. Another good example of this is Philo and Rambam adapting and adopting Greek Philosophy into Judaism. Today ‘rationalist’ or the more scientifically educated Jews twist themselves into a pretzel attempting to adopt to and adapt to modern scientific ideas to Judaism. I will come back to this notion later.]
{ETA 2/22//2016 From the Book How The Great Religions Began by Joseph Gaer 1951 New and Revised Edition
Beginning on Page 201 “Zoroaster was the first religious leader in the world to teach the belief in an abstract god, a god one could not touch or hear or smell or see.” 300 years after Zoroaster dies, Alexander the Great conquers Persia and sets up the Greek religion. People secretly teach Zoroastrianism to their children. 500 years later Zoroastrianism religion is restored. 400 years later Arabs force a new religion on to them under the threat of death. Some choose death, some accept the new religion, and some flee and practice their own religion in new places. Zoroastrianism prohibits anyone joining their religion; you have to be born into it. [This last requirement should sound familiar to Jews, however Jews do allow converts.]
Beginning page 267 Regarding Judaism - At the time of Cyrus the Zoroastrian Persians were friendly to the Jews and the Jews studied the Persian religion and learned from it. Yahweh the god of several tribes and protector of Israel now becomes the creator of the world, the latter similar to a concept in Zoroastrianism. Jews also learn from Zoroastrian life after death, heaven and hell and carried these beliefs into Judaism. From the Zoroastrianism Saoshyant (redeemer), the Jews invent the coming of their own redeemer and give him additional attributes not found in Zoroastrianism. By the time the Jews return to Israel with the help of Cyrus Judaism had greatly changed.
[The book argues that Zoroastrianism influences Judaism and that argument has merit. But Judaism most likely was also influenced by Egypt and other ancient near east cultures. Cultures that may have influenced Zoroastrianism.]}
So what additional mechanisms (reasons I may not have previously provided - I can not remember) can account for Judaism’s survival ?
A) There is an element of Jewish Tribalism. Also an element of nationalism/patriotism - that Israel is their land given to them by their God.
B) The ‘Jewish’ God can adapt to all sorts of fancies. The State God, The Divine Warrior, The Fertility / Rain Giver God, The Vengeful God, The Loving God, The Mighty God, The Threatening God , The Mystical God, the Redeemer God, The Just God, The Merciful God, The Law Giving God etc: etc: . He can be the Creator God, The Philosopher’s God, The Metaphysical God, The Theologian’s God, The Source of Morals God etc: etc etc. In short, a flavor to suit just about anybody’s taste (except us skeptics and atheists) and in any period of history.
C) Judaism includes a mix of miracles, holidays, magic, amulets, harvest (fertility) festivals, spirits, demons, angels, prayers, incantations, superstitions, holy objects, rituals and souls. There are fascinating legends and myths passed on in the Torah, holy texts and oral traditions. There are alleged holy people who have special powers and abilities. {ETA 2/28/2016 - Some Orthodox Jews give credence to dream visitations from dead ancestors and relatives.} Those provide a sort of mass folk appeal. In addition they create social cohesion and alliances.
D) For the Jewish elitists, they may find refuge in ‘rationalistic’ Judaism, which tends to pooh pooh some of the things mentioned in C), things that have so much folk appeal. Philo and Rambam accommodated Judaism to Greek Philosophy. In more modern times the rationalists try to accommodate Judaism to science ending up twisting themselves into pretzels in the process. Typically these innovators are first disparaged but eventually find a stream where they can fit in and eventually are accepted by most more or less.
E) Eventually Judaism becomes essentially Monotheistic with one God Yahweh. By definition that means no other gods. Polytheists when captured by another ‘tribe’ can readily usually adopt to that new god, so their religion can more readily change and individuals can more easily adopt the new religion. However, the monotheistic Jews would have a difficult time changing their God.
{ETA 2/22/2016 F) Judaism is not monolithic. Part of it's staying power is the numerous denominations ranging from Humanistic Judaism to the numerous sects of Ultra Orthodox. Jews can usually cross from one denomination to another. Again providing a sort of menu. This same situation was most likely true in ancient times - the various forms of the ancient Israelite religions or for example Hellenizing Jews versus the Maccabees.
A mix of stiffness and flexibility characterizes Judaism and this likely plays a role in it's survival. }
{ETA 3/23/2106 Orthodox Jews consider the future resurrection of the dead and the world to come as important principles of Judaism.
From the Book Understanding Judaism - Jacob Neusner Editor- Beginning Page 35 The [Rabbinic Jewish] belief in the world to come with it’s concomitant belief in bodily resurrection is an importation from Zoroastrian civilization. Both stem from non Jewish sources. }
The essential ideas of A) thru F) most likely provide staying power for Christianity and Islam.
Related Posts Proof of God from Prophecy , Proof of God from Israel , The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs
Updated thru 3/17/2019
In the Megillah (Book of Esther) we have the Purim story involving a plot by Haman and Jewish enemies to have the Jews killed. The plot fails and Haman with the Jewish enemies are vanquished. Haman’s 10 sons are killed and hung.
Preamble
Before discussing the ‘proof’‘ I should have written another post documenting the following facts which have bearing on the ‘proof’.
1) The Purim festival has pagan parallels.
2) Humman / Homman was a principal God of the Elamite pantheon. An obvious similarity to the name Haman.
Mashti (with an M not a V) , was a goddess in Elam , who is replaced by Ishtar- See Page 338 Goddesses in World Mythology 1993 by Ann and Imel). Recall Vashti is the King of Persia’s wife in the Megillah.
There was the Babylonian god Morodach=Marduk and goddess Ishtar. In the Megillah story the Jewish pair Mordachai and Esther usurp Haman and Vashti.
There was a Babylonian Festival where the Babylonian gods usurp the Elamite gods. How is that for a coincidence ?
This is also suggests Jews were naming their children using the names of Babylonian pagan deities. Are there hidden secrets found in the Jewish use of the names Ishtar and Marduk ?
3) Many academic scholars, if not the vast consensus consider the Purim story non historical, and for good reasons. Nevertheless, just like fictional novels may have factual statements so too the Megillah may have some factual elements. Moreover, the possibility of a planned pogrom while the Jews were in exile is certainly possible.
{ETA 3/17/2019 This new post documents #1 and #3 Historicity of Purim, Origins of Purim }
The ‘proof’ can be repudiated without recourse to any of the above.
The ‘Proof’ or ‘Argument’
It is argued there is a prophecy of the Nazis in the Megillah based on a special (I would say a seriously mistaken convoluted) reading of the Megillah together with 'amazing' Nazi parallels.
(Some add to the ‘proof’ letter skips in the Bible or Megillah finding ‘amazing’ connections between Haman, Nazis, certain dates etc:. None of those Bible Code findings have been published in peer reviewed journals. I briefly discuss Bible Codes in Proof of God from Gematria and I suggest reading that post.)
I will argue the Nazi parallels are extremely suspect, suffer from logical fallacies and historical errors. Also the argument of a Megillah prophecy is based on misconstruing Rashi, and misconstruing the Megillah. It will be demonstrated that Rashi nor the Megillah intend a Megillah prophecy.
{My following posts are also related to this sort of proof:
Proof of God from Gematria
Proof of God from Prophecy
Proof of God from Prophecy of Nazis in Talmud
For a very limited example we have in the post Proof of God from Prophecy the requirement clear intent the person or text is making a prophecy. It will be shown this requirement is lacking in the Megillah. }
With those preliminaries out of the way we may discuss the details of proof/argument.
I will use a very limited amount of Hebrew, but the discussion may be fully understood without any knowledge of Hebrew by the reader. So read on.
Here are the relevant verses from the book of Esther Chapter 9
1 Now in the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, on the thirteenth day of the same, when the king's commandment and his decree drew near to be put in execution, in the day that the enemies of the Jews hoped to have rule over them; whereas it was turned to the contrary, that the Jews had rule over them that hated them; 2 the Jews gathered themselves together in their cities throughout all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, to lay hand on such as sought their hurt; and no man could withstand them; for the fear of them was fallen upon all the peoples. 3 And all the princes of the provinces, and the satraps, and the governors, and they that did the king's business, helped the Jews; because the fear of Mordecai was fallen upon them. 4 For Mordecai was great in the king's house, and his fame went forth throughout all the provinces; for the man Mordecai waxed greater and greater. 5 And the Jews smote all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, and with slaughter and destruction, and did what they would unto them that hated them. 6 And in Shushan the castle the Jews slew and destroyed five hundred men. {S} 7 And [ואת - pronounced v'et] {S} Parshandatha, and {S} Dalphon, and {S} Aspatha, 8 and {S} Poratha, and {S} Adalia, and {S} Aridatha, 9 and {S} Parmashta, and {S} Arisai, and {S} Aridai, and {S} Vaizatha, {S} 10 the ten sons of Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Jews' enemy, slew they; but on the spoil they laid not their hand. 11 On that day the number of those that were slain in Shushan the castle was brought before the king. 12 And the king said unto Esther the queen: 'The Jews have slain and destroyed five hundred men in Shushan the castle, and the ten sons of Haman; what then have they done in the rest of the king's provinces! Now whatever thy petition, it shall be granted thee; and whatever thy request further, it shall be done.' 13 Then said Esther: 'If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews that are in Shushan to do to-morrow [מחר ] also according unto this day's decree, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows.' 14 And the king commanded it so to be done; and a decree was given out in Shushan; and they hanged Haman's ten sons. 15 And the Jews that were in Shushan gathered themselves together on the fourteenth day also of the month Adar, and slew three hundred men in Shushan; but on the spoil they laid not their hand. 16 And the other Jews that were in the king's provinces gathered themselves together, and stood for their lives, and had rest from their enemies, and slew of them that hated them seventy and five thousand--but on the spoil they laid not their hand.
Lets see how some argue there is a prophecy embedded in the above versus.
P1) The claim is made when a word is written differently there is a hidden meaning. Although not visible in the English above there are Books of Esther written with Hebrew letters that have small letters within the names of Haman sons starting in verse seven. In one tradition the letters are Shin, Taf, Zayin.
The English letter ‘A’ can be called number one. In Hebrew Numerology (Gematria) the 3 Hebrew letters can correspond to 300,7, 400 respectively. Adding them up gives 707. Now the Hebrew calendar has the year 5707 being 1946. In 1946, 10 Nazis are hung per the Nuremberg Trial. Amazing ?
Response:
The claim is made when a word is written differently there is a hidden meaning. This tradition may apply to the Torah, but I can not source it for the Megillah. Nor do any of the ‘proofs’ I have seen source it.
Adding the three Hebrew letters can give 707. But why add the letters ? The calculation is ad- hoc in order to back into the desired result. (Also see my post on Gematria).
But there are other problems.
First, 707, is not the same as 5707. The 707 could refer to 707, 1707, ...6707, 9707...100707 (if we are still around)... etc:
(Some argue there is also a large Megillah letter ‘vav’, but this is no help since ‘vav’ corresponds to 6. A large letter ‘hey’ which corresponds to 5 would be better, but that is non existent. So they argue the six ‘really’ means the sixth millennium. And why should a large letter correspond to millennium ? And why did not the Megillah give the exact number 5707 with the proper small letters or at least a large ‘hey’ ? )
The second other problem is there are different valid Jewish traditions which letters should be small. To the best of my knowledge no mention is made in the Talmud about small letters in the Megillah. The original version may not have had them, and small letters may have been added at a much later date for one reason or another. Recall, the sons names were most likely foreign and had uncertain spelling - (See appendix below for uncertainty of the actual names of Haman sons and perhaps even their number.) The Yemenite Megillah has only two small letters taf, shin. The Soncino Megillah has four small letters taf, shin, taf, zayin. So, if you are to read the addition of small letters to give dates, these other editions would give significantly different dates. None matching 5707.
Finally, the odd sized letters in the Megillah could have been written to provide 1946. Or at least 5707. It did not.
When you know the target, all sort of ad hoc calculations and speculations can be used to back into it.
P2) The claim is made that the repeated use of the Hebrew word v’et [ואת ], meaning ‘and’ in verse 7-9 has special exegesis significance . In particular it means to replicate. So the 10 sons listed in verse 7-9 imply there are 10 more. (See P3 below how this will be used.)
Response:
None of the proofs I have seen source the ‘replication’ nor do I know if would apply to the Megillah.
The best I could do is source it to several of the 32 exegesis rules of Eliezer.
Rule one. Rubbui - increase / include applies when the Hebrew words for ‘also’, ‘and’. But the rule does not specify how much to increase for each v’et. Should we increase by one ? By two etc:
Rule three. Rubbui ahar rubbui - inclusion after inclusion when the Hebrew words for ‘also’, ‘and’ are repeatedly used. This rule seems to apply very well to the Megillah Haman sons verses. The problem is it would supply way more than 10 additional people.
Rule 10 Repetition of numbers or holy book sentences or certain words. This could give an increase of Haman sons. The problem is I don’t think the rule applies to v’et (‘and’). For the word v’et, Rule one or three apply. If we apply Rule 10 to v’et, then we may apply Rule 10 to other Torah versus with that word. This would lead to conflicts and contradictions with older and ancient Rabbinic exegesis.
So the people making the proof need to source their assertion, and demonstrate their use is consistent with older rabbinic exegesis, and that it would give exactly 10 more.
Even if they can do that, it would only mean more than 10 people are hung. Meaning hung at around the time Haman’s sons are hung. It need not refer to way in the future hangings like at the time of the Nazis. See P3 for more on this.
From Talmud Megillah 15b “And Haman recounted unto them the glory of his riches and the multitude of his children. How many are indicated by ‘the multitude of his children’ [Chapter 5 verse 11] ? — Rab said: Thirty. Ten died, ten were hung, and ten were reduced to beggary. The Rabbis, however, said: Those who were reduced to beggary numbered seventy, as it says, They that were full [Hebrew sheve'im] have hired themselves out for bread. Read not sheve'im, but shiv'im [seventy]. Rami b. Abba said: In all they were two hundred and eight, as it says, And the multitude [v’rov] of his sons. But v’rov in gematria is two hundred and fourteen? R. Nahman b. Isaac said: The word is written defectively.”
[To digress and clarify about the Sheveim discussion - this is a play on words. The Hebrew root word שבע shin-bes-aiyin can mean seven or satiated]
We see from this Talmud citation some Rabbis thought Haman had more than 10 sons, but they did not agree on how many.
P3) In verse 13 Esther requests from the King 10 Haman sons be hung, even though they were already dead ! The claim is then made Esther is requesting 10 sons (meaning Nazis) to be hung in the future. [Never mind the request is to the King of Persia. I suppose the argument would say Esther request is ‘ really’ being made to God - the king of all kings and the Universe. More on this later.] To buttress their interpretation they will interpret the hebrew word [מחר] meaning tomorrow, to mean way in the future. Lets see how this is done.
Exodus13: 14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come [מחר], saying: What is this? that thou shalt say unto him: By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage;
[The Hebrew word מחר being translated as ‘in time to come’ , may also be translated as tomorrow, future]
Rashi writing about Exodus 13:14 explains regarding ‘if your son asks you in the time to come’ - Hebrew מחר sometimes means “now” [as in say Tuesday following Monday] and מחר sometimes means “at a later time,” such as it does here and such as “In time to come [מחר], your children might say to our children” (Josh. 22:24), which refers to the children of Gad and the children of Reuben.
Response:
Verse 1 - 11 it is clear Haman’s sons and others are killed on the 13th of Adar. Verse 12 - 13 The King asks Esther what she desires. She responds wanting Haman sons hung as well the slaughtering to continue on the next day. And indeed verse 14 the King commands it and Haman sons are hung. It is obvious from the entire Megillah text no reference to Nazis, Hitler etc: or any future hanging of Nazis are remotely implied.
It is obvious the context of מחר in the Megillah verses imply literally the next day and is different than the context of מחר in Exodus 13:14, which implies the future. And indeed Rashi’s commentary on Esther chap 9: 13 writes the sons to be hung refer those that were slain ! Rashi did not interpret the verses as a prophecy or a request for hangings way in the future.
Why would Esther want Haman’s already dead sons to be also hung tomorrow ?
There are very valid natural reasons and we have no need to resort to mystical explanations.
Possibilities include:
- To degrade Haman sons and name. This makes sense within the context of the Megillah story.
- As a warning. This makes sense within the context of the Megillah story.
- Hanging after execution would be consistent with Rabbinic Law that executed people be hung up.
- There is potentially another reason that would perhaps apply in those ancient times and it is better to remain silent. Just like the Torah was ‘edited’ the same applies to the Megillah.
P4) The 10 Nazi executions took place October 16, 1946 . This fell on the Jewish holiday of Hoshana Rabbah - a day of sealing judgment. Is not that amazing ?
Response
The Megillah has the 13th of the month of Adar as the day Haman sons are killed. Esther requests they are also to be hung 14th of Adar. This would not even be close to 21st of the month of Tishrei which is the day of Hoshana Rabbah. A better match to Purim would be Nazis hung near the 14th of Adar.
Also regarding Hoshana Rabbah, “There was a very widespread belief that he who did not see the shadow of his head on the night of Hoshana Rabbah would die during that year, for Hoshana Rabbah was the day of the "seal," wherein the verdict of man (passed on the *Day of Atonement) is "sealed," or the day on which the "notices" of the verdict were sent out.” From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0009_0_09257.html
So, although Hoshana Rabbah may be a day of sealing the verdict, that does not mean punishment will occur that day. Since punishment comes after the seal of the verdict, we would expect punishment to occur after October 16, 1946, not on it. This is confirmed in the following discussion by Prof. Yosef Tavori where a person has a last chance to repent on Hoshana Rabbah.
{From http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/sukot/tab.html
Hoshana Rabbah as a Day of Judgment by Prof. Yosef Tavori
Department of Talmud Bar-Ilan University's Parashat Hashavua Study Center Sukkot 5761/ 14-21 October 2000
“Hoshana Rabbah, the last day of the festival of Sukkot, is considered a day of judgment. According to the Zohar, although one is judged on the Day of Atonement [which occurs prior to Sukkot], that verdict is not delivered until the last day of Sukkot, and until then a person may still repent (Zohar, Va-Yehi 120a; Terumah 142a). However, according to the Zohar the day on which the verdict is delivered is actually Shemini Atzeret, the final day of the festival, and not Hoshana Rabbah (the day before). Hesed le-Avraham explains away the contradiction as follows-- the last chance to change one's judgment is actually Hoshana Rabbah; whoever has not yet repented by then has his verdict handed down on Shemini Atzeret.”
“In the works of the Sages (Mishna, Midrash, Talmud) there is no mention of Hoshana Rabbah as a day of judgment.” }
And in Talmud Rosh Hashana 16b
“Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year,
one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death.”
We see from the above material there are many days that the Nazi criminals could have been executed - say from Jewish New Years thru October 17,1946. Also Hoshana Rabbah is probably a non entity since it is not even mentioned in the Talmud. Moreover, assuming the Nazi criminals would not fall into the good or intermediate category, they should have been executed prior to October 16, 1946, meaning prior to Hoshana Rabbah.
Finally, from the several different Nazi trials, many Nazis executions occur on random days over a many years. Some of those days may turn out to occur on one of the many Jewish judgement periods/days or holidays by chance alone.
Consider -
Adolph Eichmann hung May 31 or June 1, 1962.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsen_trial Belsen Trial 1945 - Nazi criminals hung December 13, 1945. Some were imprisoned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_trial Auschwitz trial 1947 Some Nazi criminal hung January 28, 1948 , some imprisoned.
There were other trials. In at least one, execution was by shooting.
Nazi Parallels
NP1) Haman is descended from the Agagite (Amalek) (Chapter 3:1). The Nazis are Amalek.
Response:
We do not know the Identity of Amalek today. Some isolated Rabbis may claim the Germans or some other group are part of Amalek. But Germany was not likely considered Amalek back in the times of the Talmud. See Proof of God from Nazis in the Talmud.
NP2) Ten Haman sons are hung. 10 Nazis are hung in 1946. Also see discussion of P3 and P4 above. Is not this an amazing coincidence or Prophecy ?
Response:
There were several war crime/crimes against humanity trials held after WWII. More than 10 convicted Nazis were hung after the completion of the trials. For just two of the other trials see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_trial , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsen_trial
Also see response to P3 and P4 above.
Many of convicted Nazis were imprisoned. And unfortunately nowhere near the actual number of Nazi criminals were ever brought to justice. Even many of those who went to trial, unfortunately and as an utter disgrace to humanity got only a slap on the wrist.
ETA 3/17/2019 { From From the Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary On The Bible 1982 Page 234 2:19-23 "Hanged on the Gallows [in the Book of Esther] refers not to strangulation by a rope as in modern times, but probably impalement on a sharp stake and slow death by starvation - Persian mode of execution from which the Romans got the idea of crucifixion." [My point is this breaks the analogy of Nazi hangings from the rope compared to impalement. Thus weakening the 'proof'.]}
NP3) Julias Streicher shouted Purim Fest 1946
Response:
Lets assume he shouted that. Some Nazi leaders were familiar with Jewish traditions and festivals. Streicher (and many other Nazis) most likely knew about Purim and Haman sons being hung, and saw a parallel to the trials of some Nazis.
NP4) The Nazis were hung not shot, electrocuted, beheaded...i.e just like Esther’s request Haman sons be hung. Is not that amazing ?
Response:
Hanging was a mode of execution of criminals in the USA even up to 1972 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_in_the_United_States
For the most part the Nazis were considered criminals and not deserving of a soldiers firing squad.
“The executioner was John C. Woods. Woods had hanged 34 U.S. soldiers during the war [WWII], botching several of them.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials#Executions
So hanging was an execution method used for Nazi and non Nazi criminals.
In at least one Nazi trial (perhaps others as I have not studied them all), the firing squad method of execution was used.
Conclusion
The argument that the Megillah was intending a prophecy is not supportable based on the Megillah text or any Rashi commentary. Nor have proponents of the proof provided any other basis for a prophecy embedded in the Megillah.
Although there are some very limited parallels of the Purim story and the Nazis, the disparities and gaps are so much greater. This makes the comparison or analogy ludicrous ! What differences ?There are over 6 million differences ! In Purim the target is solely the Jews and is unsuccessful. For the Nazis the Jews are a very important target, but any ‘inferior race’ was also targeted. The Nazis also partially succeeded in their goals. The knowledgeable reader will find myriads of other differences.
Recall the ‘proof’ could include the notion Esther requesting from the King of the Universe that 10 Nazis be hung. She had the opportunity to request all Nazi criminals be hung. She had the opportunity to somehow mitigate the entire Holocaust. And the King of the Universe and Esther settle for 10 Nazis being hung. (More than 10 Nazis are hung, but only an insignificant number of Nazi criminals are ever brought to justice. And only a fraction of those are actually executed.)
Speaking of trials, an important trial of Yahweh took place in WWII. Yahweh was found guilty, sentenced to death and went sent up in smoke.
Continued Historicity Of Purim, Origins of Purim
Appendix
From the Anchor Bible Esther by Carey M. Moore 1971 we find:
Page 87 The names of Haman sons are uncertain.
And on page XLII-XLIII we find the following variations for Haman son names. Notice in the Lucianic edition there only 6 sons. {ETA - Although the chart has for the Lucianic Edition 6 sons listed, I am not sure the Lucianic Edition had exactly 6 sons. But it does have less than 10 sons. Second note my typo - mispelled Septugint, should be spelled Septuagint.}
Also, of these text the Masoretic is not the earliest.
Continued Historicity Of Purim, Origins of Purim
Updated 2/9/2015 ; Updated 2/27/2016 to add a link to amazing military victories.
Essentially the proof is something like this:
The rise of the State of Israel in 1948, over 2000 years since the Jews lost independent statehood, is so remarkable that God must be involved. Moreover, it was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
For refutes to the above See both Proof of God from Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor and Proof of God from Prophecy
A related argument is Israel's victory in the 1948 Arab- Israeli was due to a miracle.
Let me preface this discussion by saying my intent is not to denigrate the brave, heroic, resourceful Israeli soldiers, nor the sacrifices they and others made during the war of Independence. Nor should this be construed as taking sides against Israel. My only goal is to determine the degree to which we can attribute supernatural involvement in the war.
Was Israel’s victory in the War of Independence a miracle ?
I may reply throughout history there have been occasional significant military upsets where the ‘underdog’ wins or holds out much longer than expected against overwhelming odds. Here are just three examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Annual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
Are not those battles amazing miracles ?
{ETA 2/27/2016 Came across this list of many amazing military victories see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_disasters }
Remarkable military events do occur in history and they do not require invoking supernatural beings for explanations. Sometimes even chance can play a role.
Moreover, experts have provided numerous reasons for the success of Israel during the war, negating the need to cite supernatural intervention.
"On May 14, [1948] the State of Israel was proclaimed and immediately recognized by the Soviet Union and the United States. On the following day, as the British announced the end of their mandate in Palestine, the armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq entered the country with an estimated total of 21,500 troops - no match for Israel's estimated 65,000. Within less than a month the failure of the Arab intervention became certain."
Source History of Syria and Palestine page 961 Encyclopaedia Britannica volume 17, 15th edition 1974
A different evaluation of the relative number of troops and a more balanced view is found in the Yoev Gelber link below
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During WWII there were thousands of well trained Jewish soldiers who fought on the side of the Allies, including the British trained Jewish Brigade. Some of those soldiers assisted in the formation of Israel.
{ Jewish Ghetto fighters from WWII also assisted Israel}
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From our great Jewish Leader Golda Meir (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Golda_Meir)
- We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon — no alternative. The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea, and before we did that we might as well fight.
- As quoted in LIFE magazine (3 October 1969), p. 32
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Israel Studies An Anthology: The Israeli-Arab War of 1948
by Yoav Gelber (July 2009) found at this link http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/isdf/text/gelber.html provides a good discussion of some of the issues. Here are some excerpts
"In war, the stronger belligerent almost always wins and the Israeli War of Independence was no exception to this rule. A detailed examination of the balance of power reveals that throughout most of the war, excluding the period from the outset of the invasion on May 15 until the first truce in June 1948 the Jews were superior in personnel, equipment, logistics and organization. However, in the first month after the invasion the Arab armies enjoyed a considerable superiority in the air, artillery and light armor.
Moreover, the Jewish troops were exhausted after six months of combat and had already sustained heavy losses in manpower and equipment. By contrast, the invading Arab formations were fresh and complete. Nonetheless, even at this stage, the expeditionary forces and their local auxiliaries were quantitatively inferior to the Yishuv’s mobilized manpower. Throughout the rest of the war, the Haganah and the IDF remained stronger both qualitatively and quantitatively.
This statement deserves an explanation. As in most statistics, a comparison here is unfair. The figures on the Israeli side include the entire military to the last clerk of the Second Echelon. The Arab troops dispatched to Palestine consisted of combat and combat-support troops while their logistic infra-structures, GHQs and base depots remained behind. In a comparison of the numbers of combatants and fighting-support troops, adding the Palestinian auxiliaries to the Arab expeditions, the Israeli superiority would shrink considerably and the ratio would be close to equality."
“The Israeli narrative of “few against many” has been based on popular myth. Ben-Gurion had denied it during the war and repeated the denial long after it ended. Nonetheless, this popular narrative reflected an authentic anxiety in the Yishuv.”
“.... Israel’s military superiority was still insufficient to explain the final outcomes of the war. Ultimately, the enormous Jewish advantage laid in the social, organizational and technical infrastructure behind the troops and the successful transformation and application of these factors in the military sphere.”
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A History of Modern Israel Colin Shindler 2008
Beginning Page 44 Israel feared annihilation if they failed. Arab Invading force - 22000 to 28000 troops + several thousand irregulars. Israel -fielded 27000 to 30000 troops plus a home guard of 6000 and 2000-3000 Irgun. Arabs had overwhelming superiority of aircraft and heavy weaponry.
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A History of Israel - Sachar 1996
P 317 - By May 12 - Israel mobilized 30000, not much smaller than Arabs. Arabs have superior fire power plus an air force. But Jews have better military experience and are dedicated. Israel has other military advantages. For example - Israel’s Yigael Yadin who had expert knowledge of the terrain. The Jews were excellent street fighters. Arabs also had other advantages as well.
The book explains the overall poor training, or poor motivation, or poor morale of most of the Arab armies.
Page 325 June 11, 1948 - truce. By this date Israel has been fighting a bit under 4 weeks since the start of the entrance of the Arab armies into the war, and during this truce many new recruits, fighter planes, bombers, armaments and more come into Israel.
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Under Fire Israels 20 year Struggle for Survival 1968 Donald Robinson Editor
Beginning Page 91 How Israel won the War of Independence 1948-1949 by George Herald
Egyptians - brave but poorly trained.
To avoid being bombed to death Israel had underground shelters including at least one with an underground hospital. [I recall reading another source that Israel had safe munitions factories, some antitank and some anti aircraft weapons.]
Israelis- obstinate courage, surprise commando raids. Had made better use of psychological tactics such as bluffing and propaganda.
Israelis - a long tradition of self defense and military leaders and trainers since at least 1907.
During the siege of Jerusalem Fritzel developed a superior range mortar, perhaps the longest range available. Brigadier Dori - “God knows whether we would have won the war if Fritzel had not developed the superior mortar”.
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Mordechai Bar-On an Israeli Company commander says Israelis victory as a divine miracle is a false image. He goes on to explain why. (Beginning Page 37 Making Israel 2007 - Edited by Benny Morris).
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Avi Shlaim - “The final outcome of the wars was thus not a miracle but a faithful reflection of the underlying Arab-Israeli military balance.” (Beginning Page 134 Making Israel 2007 - Edited by Benny Morris).
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To summarize some history I have read, and reasons I have read for Israel’s success.
Israel initially had a big disadvantage - virtually a non existent air force and lack of big fire power, (the Israelis had some anti aircraft weapons and anti tank weapons.) The Arabs had superior air force and fire power, had some geographic strengths such as controlling key arteries. There was probably British Hostility towards Israel. Initially, Israel was at risk of losing the war against the combined armies of the Arabs.
What are some of the factors playing a role in Israel’s victory - Maybe the Fritzel, determination not to be driven into the sea, fighting ability they had developed since early 1900's, external and internal help from WWII and ghetto veterans, superior propaganda and bluffing, ability to get significant human reinforcements - planes- arms, taking calculated but risky operations, shorter communication lines, united politically and militarily. The Arabs were mostly poorly trained, poorly motivated, (lacked military experience ?) , had longer communication and land supply lines, were not coordinated, were not united, had poor military intelligence of the Jewish fighting forces, and had conflicting interests (this is still true today).
The Orthodox Jewish claim that Yahweh is fighting on behalf of Israel, is no different than the claims of other ancient peoples claiming their own god(s) fight on behalf of their own side. For example the Mesha Stele - Moab's god Kemosh fights on Moab's behalf against Israel.
From the book Ancient Israel in the Sinai by Hoffmeier 2005
Beginning on Page 79 "The Egyptians wrote history and understood events in the light of divine planning and intervention."; "Several studies have been made of Mesopotamian Literature to show there was a relationship between history and divine involvement in human affairs."}
Updated 2/27/2015 6/27/2018 4/23/2019
A text or individual makes a 'prophecy' for an event. The event came to occur. Thus the text must be of divine origin or the individual had divine information. Thus, God exists.
(I am using the term God to include something supernatural.)
Related posts are Proof of God from Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor ; Proof of God from Guarantees or Holy Sage Statements ; Proof of God from Israel ; and a series of posts began with Proof of God from Fallow.
Many ancient cultures had 'prophets'.
Section One will discuss the requirements for a text passage(s) or individual statement(s) to qualify as a prophecy. A failure to match any of the requirements disqualifies the text passage(s) or individual statement(s) from being considered evidence of a prophecy. There may be some overlap amongst the requirements.
Section Two will apply the requirements to Bible passages that are claimed by some Orthodox Jews and others proves the Torah is Divine.
Section One - Prophecy requirements
1) Open Ended. The prophecy must not be open ended or something inevitable. For example ‘There will be a great flood in China.' Given enough time a flood may occur in China.
2) Vagueness. The event being prophesied cannot be vague. The event must not be subject to retroactive interpretation so that many different outcomes may fit the event. For example 'a great war will erupt in Europe.' Many great wars could qualify.
3) Impressiveness. The prophecy must be impressive. For example. ‘A great ruler Joe will arise in the North America'. Joe is a common name and given enough time a Joe (or a variant of the name Joe) may become a ruler someplace in North America. By luck or chance a 'prophecy' can become fulfilled.
Could a reservoir of available knowledge allow a text or individual to make a prediction that has a good chance of occurring. Consider a geographic region gathering momentum towards becoming independent. If a text or individual makes the prophecy of nationhood that actually does become fulfilled, it would not be impressive. Or consider a nation surrounded by numerous powerful enemies. The prophecy is 'the nation will succumb to a violent destruction.’
4) Prophecy Date. We must be certain the date of the prophecy of an event is made before the event occurred. We must be certain the prophecy was not modified or written after the event.
5) Controllability. The event being predicted cannot be susceptible to being controlled. This is similar to self-fulfilling prophecy wherein there is control of the event's occurrence or the possibility of influencing the chance of it occurring.
6) Fulfillment. A prophecy is made for a certain described event. Yet the outcome does not match the details of the description of the event.
7) False Prophecies. If the text or individual makes many prophecies, were any not fulfilled ? If so, it suggests the non divine nature of the holy text, or the individual lacked supernaturally derived information. It suggests chance may have played a role regarding prophecies that are fulfilled.
8) Intent. It must be certain from the holy text verses or from the individual making the statement that an actual prophecy was intended. Are they just warnings ? Are they just opinions ? Are they propaganda for a certain agenda ? Are they to give hope ? An example - 'If nation XYZ does not worship the nation's God, it will be destroyed.'
9) Fulfillment of contingent conditions. Some prophecies are contingent on fulfillment of certain conditions. Have those conditions been met ? Is it even possible to evaluate if the conditions have been met ?
For example - 'Unless America repents, a disaster will strike it'. How can we evaluate if America repents or not ? What percentage must repent to avoid the disaster ? If the disaster occurs, defenders of the prophecy will say it was because America did not repent. If the disaster does not occur they will say America repented 'enough', or God works in mysterious ways.
{ETA 4/23/2019 10) Recording Bias -see Proof of God From Prophecy Part 4 }
Some times there may be a 'prophecy' about a past event. This would be similar to my Proof of God from Secrets in Holy Texts . We mention here that this kind of backward looking prophecy requires that the 'past event' be something that could not be known to the book or person making the prophecy.
Every ‘prophecy’ offered as evidence of something supernatural suffers from one or more flaws. Some readers may disagree with some of the standards as being too stringent. Considering we are using prophecy to establish supernatural things, stringency is required.
{I have been informed of this write up Prophecy For Dummies which
explains why you too should be skeptical of prophecies and the shenanigans used
by 'prophets' and people arguing for and defending amazing true prophecies. This
just the index so visit the site for the details.
1.
Mission-Critical Principles: the Prophet’s arsenal.
1a. Retroactive Shoehorning: a Prophet’s best
friend.
1b. Vaticinium ex Eventu:
After-the-fact prophecy.
1c. The
Law of Large Numbers: 1 in a million is all you need with a million
prophecies.
1d. Predicting the
Obvious: Case studies in "duh."
1e. False Fulfillment: Don’t let the facts stop
you.
1f. Self-Fulfilling
Prophecies: "They make it possible."
1g. Confirmation Bias: Make them squeal with select
fulfillment.
1h. Wishful Thinking:
Play off their dreams, hopes and fears for greater success.
1i. Dealing with Doubts: Reconciling Prophet Guilt
Syndrome.
1j. Prophecy Aids:
Dressing up both Prophecy and Fulfillment.
2. Damage Control: the general anti-skeptic
FAQ.
2a. Specifics, Dates and
Deadlines: a Prophet’s bane.
2b.
Unfalsifiable Escape Hatches: Preventing demonstrable prophecy
failures.
2c. Unexpected
Difficulties/Apologetics: Apologizing for failed prophecy.
3. Concluding Remarks.
3a. Prophecy Verification Criteria: Avoid getting duped
by other Prophets.}
Section Two - a Sample Torah Prophecy
Some Orthodox Jews and others argue the rise of Modern Israel is fulfillment of a Biblical Prophecy - Deuteronomy 30 - passages cited below.
{Indeed, the rise of Modern Israel after 2000 years appears remarkable. Though this post is about prophecy I will briefly discuss this remarkable event. First related discussion is found in my posts Proof of God from Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor , Proof of God from Israel.
In addition, remarkable historical events do not prove god(s). It would be an argument from ignorance or incredulity. Moreover, there are natural explanations that can account for many remarkable events of history. Discussion providing plausible reasons for the rise of Modern Israel are also found throughout this post.
{Lets read the prescient words and wisdom from one of the greatest Jewish Philosophers
A Theological-Political Treatise [Part I], by Benedict of Spinoza (born 1632) Translator: R. H. M. Elwes
(99) As to their [Jews] continuance so long after dispersion and the loss of empire, there is nothing marvellous in it, for they so separated themselves from every other nation as to draw down upon themselves universal hate, not only by their outward rites, rites conflicting with those of other nations, but also by the sign of circumcision which they most scrupulously observe.
(100) That they have been preserved in great measure by Gentile hatred, experience demonstrates.
(101) When the king of Spain formerly compelled the Jews to embrace the State religion or to go into exile, a large number of Jews accepted Catholicism.
(102) Now, as these renegades were admitted to all the native privileges of Spaniards, and deemed worthy of filling all honourable offices, it came to pass that they straightway became so intermingled with the Spaniards as to leave of themselves no relic
or remembrance.
(103) But exactly the opposite happened to those whom the
king of Portugal compelled to become Christians, for they always, though converted, lived apart, inasmuch as they were considered unworthy of any civic honours.
(104) The sign of circumcision is, as I think, so important, that I could persuade myself that it alone would preserve the nation for ever.
(105) Nay, I would go so far as to believe that if the foundations of their religion have not emasculated their minds they may even, if occasion offers, so changeable are human affairs, raise up their empire afresh, and that God may a second time elect them.
(106) Of such a possibility we have a very famous example in the Chinese.
(107) They, too, have some distinctive mark on their heads which they most scrupulously observe, and by which they keep themselves apart from everyone else, and have thus kept themselves during so many thousand years that they far surpass all other nations in antiquity.
(108) They have not always retained empire, but they have recovered it when lost, and doubtless will do so again after the spirit of the Tartars becomes relaxed through the luxury of riches and pride.
See (105) Spinoza's 'prophecy'}
{ETA 6/27/2018 Note: There have been massive deportations and exiles in history and some involved the eventual return of the 'people'. For example “In May 1944, the entire Crimean Tatar population of Crimea was exiled to Central Asia.” “Today, more than 250,000 Crimean Tatars have returned to their homeland,...” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
Another people that have been exiled are Chechens and many of them have returned ‘home’ see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechens
Page 417 The Anchor Bible Zechariah by Meyers and Meyers 1992 - Regarding 14:2 “Into Exile” However it literally writes “in the exile”. Reflects the practice of deportation of subject peoples or parts thereof by imperial powers. NeoAssyrians perfected it. Used extensively by Babylonians and Persians. Deuteronomy describes the Babylonian conquest. In the exilic and post exilic contexts - a sense that a new age was on the verge of beginning if not already under way. Cyrus’s edict permitting return Judah 538 BCE and temples restoration and redictication in 516/515 BC viewed as mitiation of the future age. A kind of realized eschatology.
[ Regions where ‘deportation’ or scattering of people were not practiced would not result in those sort events occurring. In regions were such practices were imposed we would expect such things to happen. Nothing miraculous about making such a prediction and it occurring. Moreover, there have been scatterings of people other than Jews who eventually come back to their homeland.] }
Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee over-abundant in all the work of thy hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good; for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as He rejoiced over thy fathers; 10 if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. {S} 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. {S} 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I declare unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; 20 to love the LORD thy God, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. {P}
I will argue the alleged prophecy violates or could potentially violate at least one of the prophecy requirements. My list is only a sample of the potential violations.
Violation of 1) Open Ended
Given sufficient duration, a country can lose it’s independence, regain it, lose it again etc:
Violation of 2) Vagueness
Was the prophecy referring to returning from the first exile or some other exile ? See Violation of 4) Prophecy Date
Moreover, there are Chassidic (Ultra Orthodox Jewish) denominations who do not view the rise of Modern Israel as the fulfillment of Torah prophecy. In fact, some of them even whore after and consort with Israel's enemies. This is where theologians will debate and tell us what the Torah 'really' means.
Violation of 4) Prophecy Date
Verse 1 - 'And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee...'
The Torah may have been redacted during the exile and so 'these things' may have already came to pass.
If the Torah was redacted within temporal proximity of the first exile or during the exile, then the promise of eventual return could be propaganda. In fact, the Torah may well be referring to a return from the first exile. This is what many Bible Scholars agree on. I will provide only a sampling.
From the book - Self Fulfilling Prophecy - by Jacob Neusner 1987
Page 1 - Regarding the Exile beginning 586 BC: At the that time the exiles, drew together whatever stories, laws, prophecies and other writings and produced the 5 Books of Moses. The experience of the Exile became part of the Torah in that the promise of the land of Israel is conditional.
Page 20 "It was only after the destruction of the first Temple of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. that the Torah, that is, the five books of Moses, came into being. A pastiche of received stories, some old, some new, all revised for the purpose of the final authors. It was in the aftermath of the destruction of that Temple and the later restoration of the exiles to the land that the authors wrote the origins of Israel, the Jewish people."
"From the exile in Babylon in 586 B.C., the authors of the Torah recast Israel's history into the story of the conditional existence of the people; their existence was measured in their possession of the land on condition of God's favor. Everything depended on carrying out a contract: do this, get that, do not do this, do not get that - and nothing formed a given and nothing was unconditional."
From Jewish Publication Society Deuteronomy Jeffrey Tigay 1996
Page 432 - Discusses Deuteronomy 4:29-31; 30:1-10 and goes on to explain they were probably not part of the original text but were interpolated during the exile to assure the Jews of that time that if they abandon sinning and return to God, he would return them to their homeland.
However, Deut 30 was written before the rise of Modern Israel. And most bible scholars would probably say before the end of the first Exile.
Violation of 5) Controllability
In the ancient near east certain god(s) were often associated with certain regions. This was also true for ancient Israel, but eventually Yahweh/El was freed from a specific region, perhaps as a result of the first exile and destruction of the first Temple. The Jews believed there was a special relationship between the Jews, God, and the promised land. Many still do. After an exile the hope of return developed in full force. It was that hope that leads to self fulfilling prophecy.
It was not that a God had any role in the survival of the 'Jewish' people. Rather the 'Jewish' people's belief in the Torah and God helped preserve them. In other words, it was their belief that eventually God would bring them out of exile/diaspora back to the promised land as per certain Torah passages. The hope that redemption was just around the corner allowed them survive trials and tribulations. The Rabbinic tradition added the promise of rewards in an afterlife. This also provided comfort and hope to survive trials and tribulations. In short, the Priests and Rabbis evolved theology that would help Jews survive.
{Myths and Facts A Guide to the Arab - Israeli Conflict by Mitchell Barb 2006 edition
Page 1 “ A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the second temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.”
“Even after the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem, and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were established in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the 9th century....” The book goes on to explain there was uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward.
Page 8 - Late 19th century antisemitism in Eastern Europe and Russia stimulate Jewish immigration to Palestine. Simultaneously - a wave of Jews from Yemen, Morocco, Irag, Turkey motivated by the dream of the ‘Return to Zion’ and a fear of intolerance.}
Violation of 6) Fulfillment
Verse 3 - It is likely some of the 10 lost tribes are lost forever. They have not been gathered in as per prophecy. Millions of Jews still reside outside Israel.
Violation of 7) False Prophecies
A valid argument may be made there are ‘prophecies’ in the Tenach that have not been fulfilled. This would require a long post.
Violation of 8) Intent
The Torah is making vague threats and rewards. Some of them are associated with ancient near east contracts. The rewards are most likely meant to influence behavior or give hope. (See Jewish Survival, Suffering and Bible Predictor. Also see above - Tigay and Neusner in Violation of 4), 5)). Though the Jews were in exile, God would redeem them if only they maintained there separateness and returned to the code.
Violation of 9) Fulfillment of Contingent conditions
The rise of modern Israel is inconsistent with the Torah's 'prophecy'.
Verse 2-3 explain that if the Israelites return to the Lord and his laws God he will restore Israel's fortunes. But no such 'teshuva', meaning the return to the Lord and his laws ever occurred ! Rather the rise of Modern Israel was probably the result of long latent and overt anti-semitism in Europe which assisted in the birth of both secular Zionism and the Holocaust. After WWII there were many Jews displaced. The world, especially the powerful post WWII Christian nations thought a Jewish homeland would be a solution. Holocaust guilt and Christian theology likely played a role. Israel would also be a useful ally to the USA.
Continued Proof of God From Prophecy Part 2
Updated 1/28/2015
A holy text / holy sage issues guarantees or commands or orders or advice. It is even possible some of those may entail great risks, national or otherwise.
It is then claimed the text or individual would not issue such unless they could be backed up. Otherwise, it would falsify the text or individual. Only God could who could fulfill them or an individual with divine insight would do so.
Hence the text is divine or the individual had divine knowledge.
My post Proof of God from Fallow discusses that sort of argument
Some discussion is also found in my posts:
Proof of God from Jewish Survival Suffering and Bible Predictor
Proof of God from Prophecy
Sometimes the individual is just giving opinion/interpretation of holy texts. Or perhaps has reasons to influence his flock's behavior for political, theological or other reasons. They are not meant to be guarantees.
This is a short post and perhaps I will come back and discuss it more. THIS HAS BEEN DONE see Proof of God from Guarantees- or Holy Sage Statements Part Two
