Proof of God from Purim Fest 1946 or Prophecy of Nazis in Megillah

Updated thru 3/17/2019

In the Megillah (Book of Esther) we have the Purim story involving a plot by Haman and Jewish enemies to have the Jews killed. The plot fails and Haman with the Jewish enemies are vanquished. Haman’s 10 sons are killed and hung.  

Preamble

Before discussing the ‘proof’‘ I should have written another post documenting the following facts which have bearing on the ‘proof’.

1) The Purim festival has pagan parallels.

2) Humman / Homman was a principal God of the Elamite pantheon. An obvious similarity to the name Haman. 
 
Mashti (with an M not a V) , was a goddess in Elam , who is replaced by Ishtar- See Page 338 Goddesses in World Mythology 1993 by Ann and Imel). Recall Vashti is the King of Persia’s  wife in the Megillah.

There was the  Babylonian god Morodach=Marduk and goddess Ishtar. In the Megillah story the Jewish pair Mordachai and Esther usurp Haman and Vashti.

There was  a Babylonian Festival where the Babylonian gods usurp the Elamite gods. How is that for a coincidence ?

This is also suggests Jews were naming their children using the names of Babylonian pagan deities. Are there hidden secrets found in the Jewish use of the names Ishtar and Marduk ?

3) Many academic scholars, if not the vast consensus consider the Purim story non historical, and for good reasons.  Nevertheless, just like fictional novels may have factual statements so too the  Megillah may have some factual elements. Moreover,  the possibility of a planned pogrom while the Jews were in exile is certainly possible. 

{ETA 3/17/2019 This new post documents #1 and #3 Historicity of Purim, Origins of Purim }

The  ‘proof’ can be repudiated  without recourse to any of the above.

The ‘Proof’ or ‘Argument’

It is argued there is a prophecy of the Nazis in the Megillah based on a special (I would say a seriously mistaken convoluted) reading of the Megillah together with 'amazing' Nazi parallels.

(Some add to the ‘proof’ letter skips in the Bible or Megillah finding ‘amazing’ connections between Haman, Nazis, certain dates etc:.  None of those Bible Code findings have been published in peer reviewed journals. I briefly discuss Bible Codes in Proof of God from Gematria and I suggest reading that post.)

I will argue the Nazi parallels are extremely suspect, suffer from logical fallacies and historical errors. Also the argument of a Megillah prophecy is based on misconstruing Rashi, and misconstruing the Megillah. It will be demonstrated that Rashi nor the Megillah intend a Megillah prophecy.

{My following posts are also related to this sort of proof:

Proof of God from Gematria

Proof of God from Prophecy

Proof of God from Prophecy of Nazis in Talmud

For a very limited example we have in the post Proof of God from Prophecy the requirement clear intent the person or text is making a prophecy. It will be shown this requirement is lacking in the Megillah. } 

With those preliminaries out of the way we may discuss the details of proof/argument.

I will use a very limited amount of Hebrew, but the discussion may be fully understood without any knowledge of Hebrew by the reader. So read on. 

Here are the relevant verses from the book of Esther Chapter 9

1 Now in the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, on the thirteenth day of the same, when the king's commandment and his decree drew near to be put in execution, in the day that the enemies of the Jews hoped to have rule over them; whereas it was turned to the contrary, that the Jews had rule over them that hated them; 2 the Jews gathered themselves together in their cities throughout all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, to lay hand on such as sought their hurt; and no man could withstand them; for the fear of them was fallen upon all the peoples. 3 And all the princes of the provinces, and the satraps, and the governors, and they that did the king's business, helped the Jews; because the fear of Mordecai was fallen upon them. 4 For Mordecai was great in the king's house, and his fame went forth throughout all the provinces; for the man Mordecai waxed greater and greater. 5 And the Jews smote all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, and with slaughter and destruction, and did what they would unto them that hated them. 6 And in Shushan the castle the Jews slew and destroyed five hundred men. {S} 7 And [ואת - pronounced v'et] {S} Parshandatha, and {S} Dalphon, and {S} Aspatha, 8 and {S} Poratha, and {S} Adalia, and {S} Aridatha, 9 and {S} Parmashta, and {S} Arisai, and {S} Aridai, and {S} Vaizatha, {S} 10 the ten sons of Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Jews' enemy, slew they; but on the spoil they laid not their hand. 11 On that day the number of those that were slain in Shushan the castle was brought before the king. 12 And the king said unto Esther the queen: 'The Jews have slain and destroyed five hundred men in Shushan the castle, and the ten sons of Haman; what then have they done in the rest of the king's provinces! Now whatever thy petition, it shall be granted thee; and whatever thy request further, it shall be done.' 13 Then said Esther: 'If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews that are in Shushan to do to-morrow [מחר ]   also according unto this day's decree, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows.' 14 And the king commanded it so to be done; and a decree was given out in Shushan; and they hanged Haman's ten sons. 15 And the Jews that were in Shushan gathered themselves together on the fourteenth day also of the month Adar, and slew three hundred men in Shushan; but on the spoil they laid not their hand. 16 And the other Jews that were in the king's provinces gathered themselves together, and stood for their lives, and had rest from their enemies, and slew of them that hated them seventy and five thousand--but on the spoil they laid not their hand.

Lets see how some argue there is a prophecy embedded in the above versus.

P1) The claim is made when a word is written differently there is a hidden meaning. Although not visible in the English above there are Books of Esther written with Hebrew letters that have small letters within the names of Haman sons starting in verse seven. In one tradition the letters are Shin, Taf, Zayin.

The English letter ‘A’ can be called number one. In Hebrew Numerology (Gematria) the 3 Hebrew letters can correspond to 300,7, 400 respectively. Adding them up gives 707. Now the Hebrew calendar has the year 5707 being 1946. In 1946, 10 Nazis are hung per the Nuremberg Trial. Amazing ?

Response: 

The claim is made when a word is written differently there is a hidden meaning. This tradition may apply to the Torah, but I can not source it for the Megillah. Nor do any of the ‘proofs’ I have seen source it. 

Adding the three Hebrew letters can give 707. But why add the letters ? The calculation is ad- hoc in order to back into the desired result. (Also see my post on Gematria). 

But there are other problems.

 First, 707, is not the same as 5707. The 707 could refer to 707, 1707, ...6707, 9707...100707 (if we are still around)... etc: 

(Some argue there is also a large Megillah letter ‘vav’, but this is no help since ‘vav’ corresponds to 6. A large letter ‘hey’ which corresponds to 5 would be better, but that is non existent. So they argue the six ‘really’ means the  sixth millennium. And why should a large letter correspond to millennium ? And why did not the Megillah give the exact number 5707 with the proper small letters or at least a large ‘hey’ ? )

The second other problem is there are different valid Jewish traditions which letters should be small. To the best of my knowledge no mention is made in the Talmud about small letters in the Megillah. The original version may not have had them,  and small letters may have been added at a much later date for one reason or another. Recall, the sons names were most likely foreign and had uncertain spelling - (See appendix below for uncertainty of the actual names of Haman sons and perhaps even their number.)  The Yemenite Megillah has only two small letters taf, shin. The Soncino Megillah has four small letters  taf, shin, taf, zayin. So, if you are to read the addition of small letters to give dates, these other editions would give significantly different dates. None matching 5707.

Finally, the odd sized letters in the Megillah could have been written to provide 1946. Or at least  5707. It did not. 

When you know the target, all sort of ad hoc calculations and speculations can be used to back into it.

P2) The claim is made that the repeated use of the Hebrew word v’et [ואת ], meaning ‘and’ in verse 7-9  has special exegesis significance . In particular it means to replicate.  So the 10 sons listed in verse 7-9 imply there are 10 more.  (See P3 below how this will be used.)

Response: 

None of the proofs I have seen  source the ‘replication’ nor do I know if would apply to the Megillah.

The best I could do is source it to several of the 32 exegesis rules of Eliezer.

Rule one. Rubbui -  increase / include applies when the Hebrew  words for ‘also’, ‘and’. But the rule does not specify how much to increase for each v’et.  Should we increase by one ? By two etc: 

Rule three. Rubbui ahar rubbui - inclusion after inclusion when the Hebrew  words for ‘also’, ‘and’ are repeatedly used. This rule seems to apply very well to the Megillah Haman sons verses. The problem is it would supply way more than 10 additional people. 

Rule 10 Repetition of numbers or holy book sentences or certain words. This could give an increase of Haman sons. The problem is I don’t think the rule applies to v’et (‘and’).  For the word v’et,  Rule one or three apply. If we apply Rule 10 to v’et, then we may apply Rule 10 to other Torah versus with that word. This would lead to conflicts and contradictions with older and ancient Rabbinic exegesis. 

So the people making the proof need to source their assertion, and demonstrate their use is consistent with older rabbinic exegesis, and that it would give exactly 10 more. 

Even if they can do that, it would only mean more than 10 people are hung. Meaning hung at around the time Haman’s sons are hung. It need not refer to way in the future hangings like at the time of the Nazis. See P3 for more on this.  


From Talmud Megillah 15b “And Haman recounted unto them the glory of his riches and the multitude of his children. How many are indicated by ‘the multitude of his children’ [Chapter 5 verse 11] ? — Rab said: Thirty. Ten died, ten were hung, and ten were reduced to beggary. The Rabbis, however, said: Those who were reduced to beggary numbered seventy, as it says, They that were full [Hebrew sheve'im] have hired themselves out for bread. Read not sheve'im, but shiv'im [seventy]. Rami b. Abba said: In all they were two hundred and eight, as it says, And the multitude [v’rov] of his sons. But v’rov in gematria  is two hundred and fourteen? R. Nahman b. Isaac said: The word is written defectively.”

[To digress and  clarify about the Sheveim discussion - this is a play on words. The Hebrew root word  שבע shin-bes-aiyin can mean seven or satiated] 

We see from this Talmud citation some Rabbis thought Haman had more than 10 sons, but they did not agree on  how many. 

P3) In verse 13 Esther requests from the King 10 Haman sons be hung, even though they were already dead !  The claim is then made Esther is requesting 10 sons (meaning Nazis) to be hung in the future. [Never mind the request is to the King of Persia.  I suppose the argument would say Esther request is ‘ really’ being made to God - the king of all kings and the Universe. More on this later.] To buttress their interpretation they will interpret the hebrew word [מחר] meaning tomorrow,  to mean way in the future.  Lets see how this is done.

Exodus13: 14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee  in time to come [מחר], saying: What is this? that thou shalt say unto him: By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage;

[The Hebrew word מחר being translated as ‘in time to come’ , may also be translated as tomorrow, future]

Rashi writing about Exodus 13:14 explains regarding ‘if your son asks you in the time to come’ -  Hebrew מחר sometimes means “now” [as in say Tuesday following Monday] and מחר  sometimes means “at a later time,” such as it does here and such as “In time to come [מחר], your children might say to our children” (Josh. 22:24), which refers to the children of Gad and the children of Reuben.


Response:

Verse 1 - 11 it is clear Haman’s sons and others are killed on the 13th of Adar.   Verse 12 - 13 The King asks Esther what she desires. She responds wanting Haman sons hung as well the  slaughtering to continue on the next day.  And indeed verse 14 the King commands it and Haman sons are hung. It is obvious from the entire Megillah text no reference to Nazis, Hitler etc: or any future hanging of Nazis are remotely implied.

It is obvious the context of  מחר in the Megillah verses imply literally the next day and is different than the context of מחר in Exodus 13:14, which implies the future. And indeed Rashi’s commentary on  Esther chap 9: 13 writes the sons to be hung  refer those that were slain !  Rashi did not interpret the verses as a prophecy or a request for hangings way in the future.

Why would Esther want Haman’s already dead sons to be also hung tomorrow  ?

There are very valid natural reasons and we have no need to resort to mystical explanations.

Possibilities include:

 - To degrade Haman sons and name. This  makes sense within the context of the Megillah story. 

 - As a warning. This  makes sense within the context of the Megillah story. 

- Hanging after execution  would be consistent with Rabbinic Law that executed people be hung up.

-  There is potentially another reason that would perhaps apply in those ancient times and it is better to remain silent. Just like the Torah was ‘edited’ the same applies to the Megillah. 

P4) The 10 Nazi executions took place October 16, 1946 . This fell on the Jewish holiday of Hoshana Rabbah - a day of sealing judgment. Is not that amazing ?

Response 

The Megillah has the 13th of the month of  Adar as the day  Haman sons are killed. Esther requests they are also to be hung 14th of Adar. This would not even be close to 21st of the month of  Tishrei which is the day of Hoshana Rabbah. A better match to Purim would be Nazis hung near the 14th of Adar.

Also regarding Hoshana Rabbah, “There was a very widespread belief that he who did not see the shadow of his head on the night of Hoshana Rabbah would die during that year, for Hoshana Rabbah was the day of the "seal," wherein the verdict of man (passed on the *Day of Atonement) is "sealed," or the day on which the "notices" of the verdict were sent out.” From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0009_0_09257.html

So, although Hoshana Rabbah may be a day of sealing the verdict, that does not mean punishment will  occur that day. Since punishment comes after the seal of the verdict,  we would expect punishment to occur after October 16, 1946,  not on it. This is confirmed in the following discussion by Prof. Yosef Tavori where a person has a last chance to repent on Hoshana Rabbah. 

{From  http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/sukot/tab.html

Hoshana Rabbah as a Day of Judgment by Prof. Yosef Tavori
Department of Talmud Bar-Ilan University's Parashat Hashavua Study Center Sukkot 5761/ 14-21 October 2000

“Hoshana Rabbah, the last day of the festival of Sukkot, is considered a day of judgment. According to the Zohar, although one is judged on the Day of Atonement [which occurs prior to Sukkot], that verdict is not delivered until the last day of Sukkot, and until then a person may still repent (Zohar, Va-Yehi 120a; Terumah 142a). However, according to the Zohar the day on which the verdict is delivered is actually Shemini Atzeret, the final day of the festival, and not Hoshana Rabbah (the day before). Hesed le-Avraham explains away the contradiction as follows-- the last chance to change one's judgment is actually Hoshana Rabbah; whoever has not yet repented by then has his verdict handed down on Shemini Atzeret.”

“In the works of the Sages (Mishna, Midrash, Talmud) there is no mention of Hoshana Rabbah as a day of judgment.” }

And in Talmud Rosh Hashana 16b

“Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year,
one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death.”

We see from the above material there are many days that the Nazi criminals could have been executed - say from Jewish New Years thru October 17,1946. Also Hoshana Rabbah is probably a non entity since it is not even mentioned in the Talmud. Moreover, assuming the Nazi criminals would not fall into the good or intermediate category, they should have been executed prior to October 16, 1946, meaning prior to Hoshana Rabbah.

Finally, from the several different Nazi trials, many Nazis executions occur on random days over a many years. Some of those days may turn out to occur on one of the many Jewish judgement periods/days or holidays by chance alone.

Consider - 

Adolph Eichmann hung May 31 or June 1, 1962.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsen_trial Belsen Trial 1945 - Nazi criminals hung December 13, 1945. Some were imprisoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_trial Auschwitz trial 1947 Some Nazi criminal hung January 28, 1948 , some imprisoned.

There were other trials. In at least one, execution was by shooting.  


Nazi Parallels


NP1) Haman is descended from the Agagite (Amalek) (Chapter 3:1). The Nazis are Amalek.

Response: 

We do not know the Identity of Amalek today. Some isolated Rabbis may claim the Germans or some other group are part of Amalek. But Germany was not likely considered Amalek back in the times of the Talmud. See Proof of God from Nazis in the Talmud. 

NP2) Ten Haman sons are hung. 10 Nazis are hung in 1946. Also see discussion of P3 and P4 above. Is not this an amazing coincidence or Prophecy ?

Response: 

There were several  war crime/crimes against humanity trials held after WWII. More than 10 convicted Nazis  were hung after the completion of  the trials. For just two of the other trials  see  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_trial ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belsen_trial

Also see response to P3 and P4 above.

Many of  convicted Nazis were imprisoned. And unfortunately nowhere near the actual number of Nazi criminals were ever brought to justice. Even many of those who went to trial, unfortunately and as an utter disgrace to humanity got only a slap on the wrist. 

ETA 3/17/2019 { From From the Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary On The Bible 1982 Page 234 2:19-23 "Hanged on the Gallows [in the Book of Esther] refers not to strangulation by a rope as in modern times, but probably impalement on a sharp stake and slow death by starvation - Persian mode of execution from which the Romans got the idea of crucifixion."  [My point is this breaks the analogy of Nazi hangings from the rope compared to impalement. Thus weakening the 'proof'.]}

NP3) Julias Streicher shouted  Purim Fest 1946

Response: 

Lets assume he shouted that. Some Nazi leaders were familiar with Jewish traditions and festivals. Streicher (and many other Nazis) most likely knew about Purim and Haman sons being hung, and saw a parallel to the trials of some Nazis. 

NP4) The Nazis were hung not shot, electrocuted, beheaded...i.e just like Esther’s request Haman sons be hung. Is not that amazing ? 

Response: 

Hanging was a mode of execution of criminals in the USA even up to 1972 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_in_the_United_States

For the most part the Nazis were considered criminals and not deserving of a soldiers firing squad.

“The executioner was John C. Woods. Woods had hanged 34 U.S. soldiers during the war [WWII], botching several of them.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials#Executions

So hanging was an execution method used for Nazi and non Nazi criminals. 

In at least one Nazi trial (perhaps others as I have not studied them all), the firing squad method of execution was used.

Conclusion 

The argument that the Megillah was intending a prophecy is not supportable based on the Megillah text or any Rashi commentary. Nor have proponents of the proof provided any other basis for a prophecy embedded in the Megillah. 

Although there are some very limited parallels of the Purim story and the Nazis, the disparities and gaps are so much greater. This makes the comparison or analogy ludicrous !  What differences ?There are over 6 million differences ! In Purim  the target is solely the Jews and is unsuccessful. For the Nazis the Jews are a very important target, but any ‘inferior race’ was also targeted. The Nazis also partially succeeded in their goals.  The knowledgeable reader will find myriads of other differences.

Recall the ‘proof’ could include the notion Esther requesting from the King of the Universe that 10 Nazis be hung.  She had the opportunity to request all Nazi criminals be hung. She had the opportunity to somehow mitigate the entire Holocaust.  And the King of the Universe and Esther settle for 10 Nazis being hung. (More than 10 Nazis are hung, but only an insignificant number of Nazi criminals are ever brought to justice. And only a fraction of those are actually executed.)

Speaking of trials, an important trial of Yahweh took place in WWII. Yahweh was found guilty, sentenced to death and went sent up in smoke.

Continued Historicity Of Purim, Origins of Purim

Appendix


From the Anchor Bible Esther by Carey M. Moore 1971 we find:

Page 87 The names of Haman sons are uncertain.

And on page XLII-XLIII we find the following variations for Haman son names. Notice in the Lucianic edition there only 6 sons. {ETA - Although the chart has for the Lucianic Edition 6 sons listed, I am not sure the Lucianic Edition had exactly 6 sons.  But it does have less than 10 sons. Second note my typo - mispelled Septugint, should be spelled Septuagint.}

Also, of these text the Masoretic is not the earliest.

Continued Historicity Of Purim, Origins of Purim

Proof of God from Israel

Updated 2/9/2015 ; Updated 2/27/2016 to add a link to amazing military victories. 

Essentially the proof is something like this:

The rise of the State of Israel in 1948, over 2000 years  since the Jews lost independent statehood,  is so remarkable that God must be involved. Moreover, it was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

For refutes to the above See  both Proof of God from Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor  and Proof of God from Prophecy 

A related argument is Israel's victory in the 1948 Arab- Israeli was due to a miracle.

Let  me preface this discussion by saying my intent is not to denigrate the brave, heroic, resourceful  Israeli soldiers, nor the sacrifices they and others made during the war of Independence. Nor should this be construed as taking sides against Israel. My only goal is to determine the degree to which we can attribute supernatural involvement in the war. 

Was Israel’s victory in the War of Independence a miracle ?

I may reply throughout history there have been occasional significant military upsets where the ‘underdog’ wins or holds out much longer than expected against overwhelming odds. Here are just three examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Annual 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

 Are not those battles amazing miracles ?

{ETA 2/27/2016  Came across this list of many amazing  military victories see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_disasters }



Remarkable military events do occur in history and they do not require invoking supernatural beings for explanations. Sometimes even chance can play a role. 

Moreover, experts have provided numerous reasons for the success of Israel during the war, negating the need to cite supernatural intervention. 

"On May 14, [1948] the State of Israel was proclaimed and immediately recognized by the Soviet Union and the United States. On the following day, as the British announced the end of their mandate in Palestine, the armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq entered the country with an estimated total of 21,500 troops - no match for Israel's estimated 65,000. Within less than a month the failure of the Arab intervention became certain."
Source History of Syria and Palestine page 961 Encyclopaedia Britannica volume 17, 15th edition 1974

A different evaluation of the relative number of troops  and a more balanced view is found in the Yoev Gelber link below

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During WWII there were thousands of well trained Jewish soldiers who fought on the side of the Allies, including the British trained Jewish Brigade. Some of those soldiers assisted in the formation of Israel. 

{ Jewish Ghetto fighters from WWII also assisted Israel}

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From our great Jewish Leader Golda Meir  (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Golda_Meir)

• We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon — no alternative. The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea, and before we did that we might as well fight.
  • As quoted in LIFE magazine (3 October 1969), p. 32

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Israel Studies An Anthology: The Israeli-Arab War of 1948
by Yoav Gelber (July 2009) found at this link http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/isdf/text/gelber.html provides a good discussion of some of the issues. Here are some excerpts

"In war, the stronger belligerent almost always wins and the Israeli War of Independence was no exception to this rule. A detailed examination of the balance of power reveals that throughout most of the war, excluding the period from the outset of the invasion on May 15 until the first truce in June 1948 the Jews were superior in personnel, equipment, logistics and organization. However, in the first month after the invasion the Arab armies enjoyed a considerable superiority in the air, artillery and light armor.

Moreover, the Jewish troops were exhausted after six months of combat and had already sustained heavy losses in manpower and equipment. By contrast, the invading Arab formations were fresh and complete. Nonetheless, even at this stage, the expeditionary forces and their local auxiliaries were quantitatively inferior to the Yishuv’s mobilized manpower. Throughout the rest of the war, the Haganah and the IDF remained stronger both qualitatively and quantitatively.

This statement deserves an explanation. As in most statistics, a comparison here is unfair. The figures on the Israeli side include the entire military to the last clerk of the Second Echelon. The Arab troops dispatched to Palestine consisted of combat and combat-support troops while their logistic infra-structures, GHQs and base depots remained behind. In a comparison of the numbers of combatants and fighting-support troops, adding the Palestinian auxiliaries to the Arab expeditions, the Israeli superiority would shrink considerably and the ratio would be close to equality."

“The Israeli narrative of “few against many” has been based on popular myth. Ben-Gurion had denied it during the war and repeated the denial long after it ended. Nonetheless, this popular narrative reflected an authentic anxiety in the Yishuv.”

“.... Israel’s military superiority was still insufficient to explain the final outcomes of the war. Ultimately, the enormous Jewish advantage laid in the social, organizational and technical infrastructure behind the troops and the successful transformation and application of these factors in the military sphere.”

--------------------------------------------

A History of Modern Israel Colin Shindler 2008

Beginning Page 44 Israel feared annihilation if they failed. Arab Invading force - 22000 to 28000 troops + several thousand irregulars. Israel -fielded 27000 to 30000 troops plus a home guard of 6000 and 2000-3000 Irgun.  Arabs had overwhelming superiority of aircraft and heavy weaponry. 

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A History of Israel - Sachar 1996

P 317 -  By May 12 - Israel mobilized 30000, not much smaller than Arabs.   Arabs have superior fire power plus an air force. But Jews have better military experience and are dedicated. Israel has other military advantages. For example - Israel’s  Yigael Yadin who had expert knowledge of the terrain. The Jews were excellent street fighters.  Arabs also had other advantages as well. 
The book explains the overall poor training, or poor motivation, or poor morale of most of the Arab armies. 

Page 325  June 11, 1948  - truce. By this date Israel has been fighting a bit under 4 weeks since the start of the entrance of the Arab armies into the war, and during this truce many new recruits, fighter planes, bombers, armaments and more come into Israel.

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Under Fire Israels 20 year Struggle for Survival 1968  Donald Robinson Editor

Beginning Page 91 How Israel won the War of Independence 1948-1949 by George Herald

Egyptians - brave but poorly trained.

To avoid being bombed to death Israel had underground shelters including at least one with an underground hospital. [I recall reading another source that Israel had  safe munitions factories, some antitank and some anti aircraft weapons.] 

Israelis- obstinate courage, surprise commando raids. Had made better use of psychological tactics such as bluffing and propaganda.

 Israelis - a long tradition of self defense and military leaders and trainers since at least 1907.

During the siege of Jerusalem  Fritzel developed a superior range  mortar, perhaps the longest range available. Brigadier Dori - “God knows whether we would have won the war if Fritzel had not developed the superior mortar”. 

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Mordechai Bar-On an  Israeli Company commander says Israelis victory as a divine miracle is a false image. He goes on to explain why. (Beginning Page 37 Making Israel 2007 - Edited by Benny Morris). 

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Avi Shlaim - “The final outcome of the wars was thus not a miracle but a faithful reflection of the underlying Arab-Israeli military balance.”  (Beginning Page 134 Making Israel 2007 - Edited by Benny Morris). 

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To summarize some history I have read, and reasons I have read for Israel’s success. 

Israel initially had a big disadvantage - virtually a non existent air force and lack of big fire power, (the Israelis had some anti aircraft weapons and anti tank weapons.)  The Arabs had superior air force and fire power, had some geographic strengths such as controlling key arteries. There was probably British Hostility towards Israel.  Initially, Israel was at risk of losing the war against the combined armies of the Arabs.

 What are some of the factors playing a role in Israel’s victory - Maybe the  Fritzel, determination not to be driven into the sea, fighting ability they had developed since early 1900's, external and internal help from WWII and ghetto veterans, superior propaganda and bluffing, ability to get significant human reinforcements - planes- arms, taking calculated but risky operations, shorter communication lines, united politically and militarily.  The Arabs were mostly poorly trained, poorly motivated, (lacked military experience ?) , had longer communication and land supply lines, were not coordinated, were not united, had poor military intelligence of the Jewish fighting forces, and had conflicting interests (this is still true today). 

The Orthodox Jewish claim that Yahweh is fighting on behalf of Israel, is no different than the claims of other ancient peoples claiming their own god(s) fight on behalf of their own side. For example the Mesha Stele - Moab's god  Kemosh fights on Moab's behalf  against  Israel. 

From the book Ancient Israel in the Sinai by Hoffmeier 2005 
Beginning on Page 79 "The Egyptians wrote history and understood events in the light of divine planning and intervention.";  "Several studies have been made of Mesopotamian Literature to show there was a relationship between history and divine involvement in human affairs."}

Proof of God from Prophecy (Part 1)

Updated 2/27/2015  6/27/2018  4/23/2019

A text or individual makes a 'prophecy' for an event. The event came to occur. Thus the text must be of divine origin or the individual had divine information. Thus, God exists.

(I am using the term God to include something supernatural.)

Related posts are Proof of God from  Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor ;  Proof of God from Guarantees or Holy Sage Statements ;  Proof of God from Israel ; and a series of posts began with Proof of God from Fallow.

Many ancient cultures had 'prophets'. 

Section One will discuss the requirements for a text passage(s) or individual statement(s) to qualify as a prophecy. A failure to match any of the requirements disqualifies the text passage(s) or individual statement(s) from being considered evidence of a prophecy. There may be some overlap amongst the requirements.

Section Two will apply the requirements to Bible passages that are claimed by some Orthodox Jews and others proves the Torah is Divine.

Section One - Prophecy requirements

1) Open Ended. The prophecy must not be open ended or something inevitable. For example ‘There will be a great flood in China.' Given enough time a flood may occur in China.

2) Vagueness. The event being prophesied cannot be vague. The event must not be subject to retroactive interpretation so that many different outcomes may fit the event. For example 'a great war will erupt in Europe.'  Many great wars could qualify.

3) Impressiveness. The prophecy must be impressive. For example. ‘A great ruler Joe will arise in the North America'. Joe is a common name and given enough time a Joe (or a variant of the name Joe) may become a ruler someplace in North America. By luck or chance a 'prophecy' can  become fulfilled. 

Could a reservoir of available knowledge allow a text or individual to make a prediction that has a good chance of occurring.  Consider a  geographic region gathering momentum towards becoming independent. If a  text or individual makes the prophecy of nationhood that actually does become fulfilled, it would not be impressive. Or consider a nation surrounded by numerous powerful enemies. The prophecy is 'the nation will succumb to a violent destruction.’ 

4) Prophecy Date. We must be certain the date of the prophecy of an event is made before the event occurred. We must be certain the prophecy was not modified or written after the event. 

5) Controllability. The event being predicted cannot be susceptible to being controlled. This is similar to self-fulfilling prophecy wherein there is control of the event's occurrence or the possibility of influencing  the chance of it occurring.  

6) Fulfillment. A prophecy is made for a certain described event. Yet the outcome does not match the details of the description of the event.  

7) False Prophecies. If the text or individual makes many prophecies, were any not fulfilled ? If so, it suggests the non divine nature of the holy text, or the individual lacked supernaturally derived information. It suggests chance may have played a role regarding prophecies that are fulfilled. 

8) Intent. It must be certain from the holy text verses or from the individual making the statement that an actual prophecy was intended. Are they just warnings ? Are they just opinions ?  Are they propaganda for a certain agenda ? Are they to give hope ? An example -  'If nation XYZ  does not worship the nation's God, it will be destroyed.' 

9) Fulfillment of contingent conditions. Some prophecies are contingent on fulfillment of certain conditions. Have those conditions been met ?  Is it even possible to evaluate if the conditions have been met ?

For example - 'Unless America repents, a disaster will strike it'. How can we evaluate if America repents or not ?  What percentage must repent to avoid the disaster ?  If the disaster occurs, defenders of the prophecy will say it was because America did not repent. If the disaster does not occur they will say America repented 'enough', or God works in mysterious ways.

{ETA 4/23/2019 10) Recording Bias -see Proof of God From Prophecy Part 4  }

Some times there may be a 'prophecy' about a past event. This would be similar to my Proof of God from Secrets in Holy Texts . We mention here that this kind of backward looking prophecy requires that the 'past event' be something that could not be known to the book or person making the prophecy.

Every ‘prophecy’ offered as evidence of something supernatural suffers from one or more flaws. Some readers may disagree with some of the standards as being too stringent. Considering we are using prophecy to establish supernatural things, stringency is required.

{I have been informed of this write up Prophecy For Dummies which explains why you too should be skeptical of prophecies and the shenanigans used by 'prophets' and people arguing for and defending amazing true prophecies. This just the index so visit the site  for the details.

 1. Mission-Critical Principles: the Prophet’s arsenal.

1a. Retroactive Shoehorning: a Prophet’s best friend.

1b. Vaticinium ex Eventu: After-the-fact prophecy.

1c. The Law of Large Numbers: 1 in a million is all you need with a million prophecies.

1d. Predicting the Obvious: Case studies in "duh."

1e. False Fulfillment: Don’t let the facts stop you.

1f. Self-Fulfilling Prophecies: "They make it possible."

1g. Confirmation Bias: Make them squeal with select fulfillment.

1h. Wishful Thinking: Play off their dreams, hopes and fears for greater success.

1i. Dealing with Doubts: Reconciling Prophet Guilt Syndrome.

1j. Prophecy Aids: Dressing up both Prophecy and Fulfillment.

     2. Damage Control: the general anti-skeptic FAQ.

2a. Specifics, Dates and Deadlines: a Prophet’s bane.

2b. Unfalsifiable Escape Hatches: Preventing demonstrable prophecy failures.

2c. Unexpected Difficulties/Apologetics: Apologizing for failed prophecy.

     3. Concluding Remarks.

3a. Prophecy Verification Criteria: Avoid getting duped by other Prophets.}


Section Two - a Sample Torah Prophecy 

Some Orthodox Jews and others argue the rise of Modern Israel is fulfillment of  a Biblical Prophecy - Deuteronomy 30 - passages cited below.  

{Indeed, the rise of Modern Israel after 2000 years appears remarkable. Though this post is about prophecy I will briefly discuss this remarkable event. First related discussion is found in my posts Proof of God from  Jewish Survival, Suffering and the Bible Predictor , Proof of God from Israel.

In addition, remarkable historical events do not prove god(s). It would be an argument from ignorance or incredulity. Moreover, there are natural explanations that can account for many remarkable events of history. Discussion providing plausible reasons for the rise of Modern Israel are also found throughout this post. 

{Lets read the prescient words and wisdom from one of the greatest Jewish Philosophers 

A Theological-Political Treatise [Part I], by  Benedict of Spinoza (born 1632)  Translator: R. H. M. Elwes

(99) As to their [Jews] continuance so long after dispersion and the loss of empire, there is nothing marvellous in it, for they so separated themselves from every other nation as to draw down upon themselves universal hate, not only by their outward rites, rites conflicting with those of other nations,  but also by the sign of circumcision which they most scrupulously observe.
(100) That they have been preserved in great measure by Gentile hatred, experience demonstrates. 
(101) When the king of Spain formerly compelled the Jews to embrace the State religion or to go into exile, a large number of Jews accepted Catholicism. 
(102) Now, as these renegades were admitted to all the native privileges of Spaniards, and deemed worthy of filling all honourable offices, it came to pass that they straightway became so intermingled with the Spaniards as to leave of themselves no relic
or remembrance. 
(103) But exactly the opposite happened to those whom the
king of Portugal compelled to become Christians, for they always, though converted, lived apart, inasmuch as they were considered unworthy of any civic honours.
(104) The sign of circumcision is, as I think, so important, that I could persuade myself that it alone would preserve the nation for ever. 
(105) Nay, I would go so far as to believe that if the foundations of their religion have not emasculated their minds they may even, if occasion offers, so changeable are human affairs, raise up their empire afresh, and that God may a second time elect them.
(106) Of such a possibility we have a very famous example in the Chinese. 
(107) They, too, have some distinctive mark on their heads which they most scrupulously observe, and by which they keep themselves apart from everyone else, and have thus kept themselves during so many thousand years that they far surpass all other nations in antiquity. 
(108) They have not always retained empire, but they have recovered it when lost, and doubtless will do so again after the spirit of the Tartars becomes relaxed through the luxury of riches and pride. 

See (105) Spinoza's 'prophecy'}

{ETA 6/27/2018 Note: There have been massive deportations and exiles in history and some involved the eventual return of the 'people'. For example “In May 1944, the entire Crimean Tatar population of  Crimea was exiled to Central Asia.”  “Today, more than 250,000 Crimean Tatars have returned to their homeland,...” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
Another people that have been exiled are Chechens and many of them have returned ‘home’ see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechens

Page 417 The Anchor Bible Zechariah by Meyers and  Meyers 1992 - Regarding 14:2 “Into Exile” However it literally writes “in the exile”. Reflects the practice of deportation of subject peoples or parts thereof by imperial powers. NeoAssyrians perfected it. Used extensively by Babylonians and Persians. Deuteronomy describes the Babylonian conquest. In the exilic and post exilic contexts - a sense that a new age was on the verge of beginning if not already under way. Cyrus’s edict permitting return Judah 538 BCE and temples restoration and redictication in 516/515 BC viewed as mitiation of the future age. A kind of realized eschatology.

[ Regions where ‘deportation’ or scattering of people were not practiced would not result in those sort events occurring. In regions were such practices were imposed we would expect such things to happen. Nothing miraculous about making such a prediction and it occurring. Moreover, there have been scatterings of people other than Jews who eventually come back to their homeland.] }

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee over-abundant in all the work of thy hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good; for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as He rejoiced over thy fathers; 10 if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. {S} 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. {S} 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I declare unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; 20 to love the LORD thy God, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. {P}

I will argue the alleged prophecy violates or could potentially violate at least one of the prophecy requirements. My list is only a sample of the potential violations.

Violation of 1) Open Ended

Given sufficient duration, a country can lose it’s independence, regain it, lose it again etc:

Violation of 2) Vagueness

Was the prophecy referring to returning from the first exile or some other exile ? See Violation of 4) Prophecy Date 

Moreover, there are Chassidic (Ultra Orthodox Jewish)  denominations  who do not view the rise of Modern Israel as the fulfillment of Torah prophecy. In fact, some of them even whore after and consort with Israel's enemies. This is where theologians will debate and tell us what the Torah 'really' means.

Violation of 4) Prophecy Date 

Verse 1 - 'And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee...'

The Torah may have been redacted during the exile and so 'these things'  may have already came to pass.  

If the Torah was redacted within temporal proximity of the first exile or during the exile, then the promise of eventual return could be  propaganda. In fact, the Torah may well be referring to a return from the first exile. This is what many Bible Scholars agree on. I will provide only a sampling.

From the book - Self Fulfilling Prophecy - by Jacob Neusner 1987

Page 1  - Regarding the Exile beginning 586 BC: At the that time the exiles, drew together whatever stories, laws, prophecies and other writings and produced the 5 Books of  Moses. The experience of the Exile became part of the Torah in that the promise of the land of Israel is conditional. 

Page 20 "It was only after the destruction of the first Temple of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. that the Torah, that is, the five books of Moses, came into being. A pastiche of received stories, some old, some new, all revised for the purpose of the final authors. It was in the aftermath of the destruction of that Temple and the later restoration of the exiles to the land that the authors wrote the origins of Israel, the Jewish people." 

"From the exile in Babylon in 586 B.C., the authors of the Torah recast Israel's history into the story of the conditional existence of the people; their existence was measured in their possession of the land on condition of God's favor. Everything depended on carrying out a contract: do this, get that, do not do this, do not get that - and nothing formed a given and nothing was unconditional." 

From Jewish Publication Society Deuteronomy Jeffrey Tigay 1996 

Page 432 - Discusses Deuteronomy 4:29-31; 30:1-10 and goes on to explain they were probably not part of the original text but were interpolated during the exile to assure the Jews of that time that if they abandon sinning and return to God, he would return them to their homeland.

However, Deut 30 was written before the rise of Modern Israel. And most bible scholars would probably say before the end of the first Exile.

Violation of 5) Controllability

In the ancient near east certain  god(s) were often associated with certain regions. This was also true for ancient Israel, but eventually Yahweh/El  was freed from a specific region, perhaps as a result of the first exile and destruction of the first Temple. The Jews believed there was a special relationship between the Jews, God, and the promised land. Many still do. After an exile the hope of return developed in full force. It was that hope that leads to self fulfilling prophecy. 

It was not that a God had any role in the survival of the 'Jewish' people. Rather the 'Jewish' people's belief in the Torah and God helped preserve them.  In other words, it was their belief that eventually God would bring them out of exile/diaspora back to the promised land as per certain Torah passages. The  hope that redemption was just around the corner allowed them survive trials and tribulations. The Rabbinic tradition added the promise of  rewards in an afterlife. This also provided comfort and hope to survive trials and tribulations. In short, the Priests and Rabbis evolved theology that would help Jews survive.  

{Myths and Facts A Guide to the Arab - Israeli Conflict by Mitchell Barb 2006 edition

Page 1 “ A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the second temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their  historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.”

“Even after the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem, and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were established in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the 9th century....” The book goes on to explain there was uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward.

Page 8 - Late 19th century antisemitism in Eastern Europe and Russia stimulate Jewish immigration to Palestine. Simultaneously - a wave of Jews from Yemen, Morocco, Irag, Turkey motivated by the dream of the ‘Return to Zion’ and a fear of intolerance.}

Violation of 6) Fulfillment 

Verse 3 -  It is likely some of the 10 lost tribes are lost forever. They have not been gathered in as per prophecy. Millions of Jews still reside outside Israel.

Violation of 7) False Prophecies

A valid argument may be made there are ‘prophecies’ in the Tenach that have not been fulfilled. This would require a long post.

Violation of 8) Intent 

The Torah is making vague threats and rewards. Some of them are associated with ancient near east contracts. The rewards are most likely meant to influence behavior or give hope. (See Jewish Survival, Suffering and Bible Predictor. Also see above -  Tigay and Neusner in Violation of 4), 5)). Though the Jews were in exile, God would redeem them if only they maintained there separateness and returned to the code.

Violation of 9) Fulfillment of Contingent conditions

The rise of modern Israel is inconsistent with the Torah's 'prophecy'.

Verse 2-3 explain that if the Israelites return to the Lord and his laws God he will restore Israel's fortunes. But no such 'teshuva', meaning the return to the Lord and his laws ever occurred ! Rather the rise of Modern Israel was probably the result of long latent and overt anti-semitism in Europe which assisted in the birth of both secular Zionism and the Holocaust. After WWII there were many Jews displaced. The world, especially the powerful post WWII Christian nations thought a Jewish homeland would be a solution. Holocaust guilt and Christian theology likely played a role. Israel would also be a useful ally to the USA.

Continued Proof of God From Prophecy Part 2

Proof of God from Guarantees or Holy Sage Statements

Updated 1/28/2015  

A holy text / holy sage issues guarantees or commands or orders or advice. It is even possible some of those may entail great risks, national or otherwise. 

It is then claimed the text or individual would not issue such unless they could be backed up. Otherwise, it would falsify the text or individual.  Only God could who could fulfill them or an individual with divine insight would do so.

Hence the text is divine or the individual had divine knowledge. 

My post Proof of God from Fallow discusses that sort of argument

Some discussion is also found in my posts:

Proof of God from Jewish Survival Suffering and Bible Predictor


Proof  of God from Prophecy


Sometimes the individual is just giving opinion/interpretation of holy texts. Or perhaps has reasons to influence his flock's behavior for political, theological or other reasons. They are not meant to be guarantees. 

This is a short post and perhaps I will come back and discuss it more. THIS HAS BEEN DONE see Proof of God from Guarantees- or Holy Sage Statements Part Two

Proof of God based on Claim of Prophecy of Nazis in the Talmud

The claim is made that the Talmud's Megilah 6a-b commentary of Psalm  140:9, predicts Nazi Germany could 'break out' and conquer the world. The claim is then made this is proof of prophecy.

Here are the passages:

Psalms140:9 O Lord, do not grant the desires of the wicked; do not let his thoughts succeed, for they are constantly haughty.

Megilah 6a

R. Isaac also said: What is meant by the verse, Grant not, O Lord, the desires of the wicked, draw not out his bit,43 so that they exalt themselves, selah?44 Jacob said before the Holy One, blessed be
He: Sovereign of the Universe, grant not to Esau the wicked the desire of his heart, draw not out his bit:

(43) E.V., ‘further not his evil device’.
(44) Ps, CXL, 9

Talmud - Mas. Megilah 6b
this refers to Germamia of Edom,1 for should they but go forth they would destroy the whole world. R. Hama b. Hanina said: There are three hundred crowned heads in Germamia of Edom and three
hundred and sixty-five chieftains in Rome,2 and every day one set go forth to meet the other and one of them is killed, and they have all the trouble of appointing a king again.

(1) There was another Germamia which was probably the land of the Cimmerians. [Rieger, P. (MGWJ. LXXX, p. 455) identifies it with Carminia, the Persian Kerman.]
(2) This word seems to be an interpolation

I am loss to see how this is a proof of prophecy.

Recall the Talmud equates an Esau son with Rome, see an example at end of post.

Germamia of Edom - is the Roman province of Germania per Jastrow's Dictionary of Targumim, Talmud and Midrash. We know  the Talmud authors were aware of Roman expansion goals, German provinces of Rome and the problems Rome was having with the Germanic tribes.  It was current events for many of them. The German tribes were acting as the good guys - a 'bit', a restraint on Roman expansion. 

The Talmud authors retroactively read into the Psalms the conflict they were aware of first hand. It is not about Nazi Germany whatsoever. Besides, for us to accept a prophecy as a proof we need to have knowledge of when the prediction was made, when the prediction says the event would occur, clear meaning of what is being predicted etc: etc: None of this is provided or available in the 'proof'. 

Also, Psalms 140:9 is not making a prophecy, and could  be referring to just about any wicked country.

To make this more understandable I have added country names to the Talmud tracts.

Megilah 6a

R. Isaac also said: What is meant by the verse, Grant not, O Lord, the desires of the wicked, draw not out his bit, so that they exalt themselves, selah? Jacob said before the Holy One, blessed be
He: Sovereign of the Universe, grant not to Esau [meaning Rome] the wicked the desire of his heart, draw not out his
bit [the resisting German tribes]:

Mas. Megilah 6b
this refers to Germamia of Edom, for should they [Rome] but go forth they would destroy the whole world. R. Hama b. Hanina said: There are three hundred crowned heads in Germamia of Edom and three hundred and sixty-five chieftains in Rome, and every day one set go forth to meet the other and one of them is killed, and they have all the trouble of appointing a king again.

The Talmud never claims or implies that the Talmud itself  is  making a prophecy. (However, some modern Rabbis such as those using the proof advocate that Talmud is in effect prophesying).  Rather the Talmud is  interpreting Psalm 140:9 to apply to a certain conflict.  But Psalm 140:9 is so vague as to apply to just about any wicked desires and of any country and so in no way can it be suggested as proof of a prophecy

I am now going to offer a novel reading of my own. Recall another name for Jacob is Israel. So read Megila 6a as a literal statement. i.e. Israel during the Rome-German conflict is praying, pleading to the Lord to keep Rome restrained, with the hope of Rome's eventual demise.
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{ETA 1/12/2015 

Talmud Yoma 10A
Rab said: Persia will fall into the hands of Rome

Lets suppose this did occur. 
The prophecy does not specify when it will occur. 
The chance it could occur increases greatly if the date of the event is not provided.
Even if it did occur it would be not be an extraordinary prophecy.  Could just be a lucky guess.

R. Judah b. Ila'i, said: Rome is
designed to fall into the hands of Persia

Lets suppose this did occur. 
The prophecy does not specify when it will occur.
The chance it could occur increases greatly if the date of the event is not provided.
Even if it did occur it would be not be an extraordinary prophecy.  Could just be a lucky guess.

Notice almost all basis are covered between the two 'predictions'. A third prediction is neither would occur.


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Related post Proof of God From Prophecy 

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Talmudic sample support that equates Rome with an Esau's son 

Talmud - Mas. Gittin 17a
....and took away their lamp;1 whereupon Rabbah b. Bar Hanah ejaculated: ‘O All Merciful One! either
in Thy shadow or in the shadow of the son of Esau!’2

(2) I.e., the Roman Empire

Proof / Disproof of God based on Fallow Part One

The proof/disproof for god (Yahweh) involves:

Leviticus: 25:3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune
thy vineyard, and gather in the produce thereof. 4 But in the seventh year shall be
a sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a sabbath unto the LORD; thou shalt neither
sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. 5 That which groweth of itself of thy harvest
thou shalt not reap, and the grapes of thy undressed vine thou shalt not gather; it
shall be a year of solemn rest for the land. 6 And the sabbath-produce of the land
shall be for food for you: for thee, and for thy servant and for thy maid, and for
thy hired servant and for the settler by thy side that sojourn with thee; 7 and for
thy cattle, and for the beasts that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be
for food....18 Wherefore ye shall do My statutes, and keep Mine ordinances and
do them; and ye shall dwell in the land in safety. 19 And the land shall yield her
fruit, and ye shall eat until ye have enough, and dwell therein in safety. 20 And if ye
shall say: 'What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we may not sow, nor gather
in our increase'; 21 then I will command My blessing upon you in the sixth year,
and it shall bring forth produce for the three years. 22 And ye shall sow the eighth
year, and eat of the produce, the old store; until the ninth year, until her produce
come in, ye shall eat the old store.

Most, if not all academic scholars interpret Levit 25 (Shemita) regulations as
prescribing that every seventh year the entire country fallows simultaneously.

Shemita is a very complicated topic and I have limited my discussion almost solely
to the proposed 'proof/disproof'.

Before discussing the 'proof/disproof' please read the following important
background material carefully. It also provides academic support for Part 2 and
Part 3 and should be kept in mind while reading them. {ETA 12/15/2014 - A reader who desires to see the proof/disproof go to part 2 and part 3. Think of this Part 1 as supporting documentation to those other two posts.}

-----------------------------
Native American Religions - by Paula Hartz 1997

P 53 Regarding Native Americans - "A sacred song can carry prayers to the spirit world, cure illness, and influence weather and events."

P 59  Native Americans believe that prayer and attention to the spirits can
influence the spirit world and therefore nature. Most agricultural tribes
performed a ritualistic dance to bring life giving rain."

--------------------------------
African Religion by Aloysius Lugira 1999

P 73 " Rain is so important that there are special rites, and indeed, ritual specialists whose main function is to bring about rain at crucial times."

---------------------------------
Religions of the American Indians - by Ake  Hultkrantz 1967, 1979 translation.

Page 274 In March masses of children are sacrificed to the Aztec god Tlaloc. The more they cry the more rain Tlaloc sends.

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We have precedent for Jewish legal loopholes to abolish Shemita:

In Talmud Sanhedrin 26A R. Jannai abolishes it for economic reasons.

In Israel today there are available Rabbi sanctioned legal loopholes to plant
during the Shemita year.

What I am suggesting is the Priests or Rabbi's would have found ways to mitigate
Shemita in states of emergency, especially if life was in danger.

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Handbook of Life in Bible Times by J.A. Thompson 1986

Page 132 Large government store houses have been excavated in Megiddo, Hazor,
Beer-Sheba and Beth Shemesh, where grain, wine, and olive oil were kept."

--------------------------------

Life In Biblical Israel by King and Stager 2001

Page 91 There were granaries, silos, for grain storage both private and publicly
owned. There were storage pits, collard pithoi and large vessels.

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The Economic Life of the Ancient World by Jules Toutain 1951

Page 9 Regarding Homeric and Hesiodic Society - To reduce soil exhaustion -  each
year one half of the land would fallow and the other half was sown.

Page 38 Greece by the  6th to 4th century B.C. fallowing was no longer the only
method to rest the soil. They had developed ways to obtain better yields than just
fallowing as in page 9.

--------------------------------

The Scale and Nature of the Late Bronze Age Economies of Egypt and Cyprus by
Keith Padgham 2014

P 17 Cypriot Agriculture - It was customary to fallow up to 50% of cultivated
land. Also they practiced Bare Fallowing - Land was cultivated only once every
two to three years. Garnsey suggests that for dry or semi arid conditions: Year
one wheat or Barley. Year Two Legumes. Year Three Fallow.

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From Debt - Slavery in Israel and the Ancient Near East by Gregory Chirichigno  1993

P 304 There were examples of 7-year cycles in the ancient near east which already
had religious and cultic associations before similar Israelite Sabbatical was
instituted, although it is not entirely clear the Israelites borrowed this ancient
practice from any other culture.

Page 310 From Hopkins - a practical way an ancient Israelite Farmer could satisfy
Shemita with biennial rotation.  He divides the land into two plots. {Notation - C -
crop, F - Fallow, S - Shemita Fallow the whole country.} He plants as follows. In
the first year Plot 1 is cropped, while Plot 2 is fallowed. The sequence starting
from year one is:

Plot 1 C F C F C C S  F C F C F C S
Plot 2 F C F C F C S  C F C F C C S

[This is similar to the ancient Homeric and Hesiodic Society
crop-fallow-crop-fallow etc:  system mentioned above.]

Hopkins suggests that Shemita would promote social cohesion and enforce
elasticity of agricultural production.

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Anchor Bible Dictionary Volume 5 1992

Regarding Sabbatical Year page 857

The existence of a seven year cycle of nature is found in Ugaritic Texts (Gordon
1953). "Its purpose was connected with the victory of Baal over Mot, and was to
ensure agricultural prosperity."  There are some parallels (particularly the seventh
year) which indicate the close association of religious belief and agricultural
practices.

--------------------------------

The EERDMANS Bible Dictionary 1987

P 898 "It is not certain whether the Sabbatical Year was ever consistently
practiced" After citing several Tenach verses goes on to say "This suggests that
the actual observance of the Sabbatical year had been dropped before the exile..."

--------------------------------

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia 1988

P 252 "Observance of the Sabbatical year possessed agricultural and economic
value, for it prevented continuos tilling of the land (Levit 25:4)"

"...for almost 500 years before the exile of Judah in 587 B.C. the Sabbatical
regulation seems to have been widely disregarded..."

--------------------------------

The Anchor Bible Leviticus 23-27 by Jacob Milgrom 2001

P 2156 "As argued by Cohen (1979:45-49), The Sabbatical year was rarely observed..."

P  2182 Reaping is forbidden in the Sabbatical year, but every Israelite is permitted
to benefit from whatever happens to be growing in the field.

P 2158 Regarding the after growth of verse 5 "There is ample evidence that the
after growth during the first fallow year is so abundant that at times two or three
harvests are obtained from one sowing in the Galilee highlands in Wadi Artas,
near Bethleham (Kalisch 1867-72)."

P 2246 "From earliest times Farmers would have realized that fertility was a
coefficient of periodic fallowness...Also  there was an  economic advantage to
accumulate surplus during the first six years to be consumed in the seventh and
thereby obviate the need to engage in a money economy.  And as demonstrated by
M. Hildenbrand and Hopkins (1985, see comment C), leaving the entire land fallow
for the seventh year, provided there had been judicious rotation during the
previous six, need not have resulted in economic stress."

--------------------------------

Ancient Israel by Roland Der Vaux 1965 edition

Page 173 Regarding Sabbatical Year - Seven year periods also occurs in Oriental
literature.

-------------------------------

My Sabbath post discusses the mythological  importance of seven.

Sabbatical Cycle or Seasonal Pattern ? Reflections on a New Book  (Kapelrud's
Baal in the Ras Shamra 1952) by , C. Gordon in Orientalia Volume 22, 1953

From Ugaritic Literature:

Mot's death at the hands of Baal (or Anath) lasted 7 years.

"...Seven years may Baal fail, yea 8 the Rider of Clouds; let there be no dew, no
rain..."

Text 52 deals with the ushering in of a 7 year cycle of plenty.

"Moreover, other texts  such as  'seven years the god is ful' (75:II:45) tie in with
this 'cyclicity', regardless who the god may be."

"Seven-year famines result from the  slaying of a hero such as Gilgamesh, Aqhat
and probably Saul and Jonathan.
People feared unseasonable drought, locust plagues, blight, ....
When a succession of sterile years occurred life became unbearable. "Such
catastrophes were coupled in the minds of the people of Mesopotamia, Ugarit,
Israel, Egypt etc. with the seven-motif and therefore it occurs to us that while
seasonal pattern is ruled out, Sabbatical Cycle fits the facts. The land is to lie
fallow in the seventh year so that the next Sabbatical Cycle will be a fertile one.

This suggests original fertility rites in conjunction with the  Sabbatical Cycle. That
the institution goes back to pre-Israelite origins is evident from the extrabibilical
texts we have cited, especially those from Ugarit."

-----------------------------------------------

The Sabbatical Year
A Eugene D. Owen in e: Agricultural History, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Jan., 1938), pp. 32-45

The following is directly quoted from Owen.

It is reasonably certain that the practice of fallowing land in some systematic way is much older
than the Mosaic legislation and that it was not confined to theHebrews but belonged rather to a stage of agricultural development.

It may be questioned whether the spontaneous crop of a coun
try would be sufficient to sustain its population for a year. How-
ever, there was no command against storing for the sabbatical
year and thus diligence and thrift were rewarded.

There was also a promise of a much greater crop in the sixth year, which
could not be a result of natural causes since then the ground would
be more nearly exhausted than at any other time in the seven-year
period. Furthermore, there is at least one account in ancient
literature of some such system. It is said that in early times
there were many places in Albania where the land when sown
once produced two or even three crops, the first a crop of even
fiftyfold and the others coming up without additional plowing.
Though Palestine was not usually reputed to be an exceedingly
fertile land, making allowances for the probable exaggeration
of hearsay with regard to Albania, some return should be ex
pected from natural seeding of grain left in the field.
The references in ancient literature to returns from seeding fall
naturally into two groups: one, in which yields are about what
would be expected from the same sort of soil today; and the other,
in which they are so large as to be considered impossible by Ellen
Churchill Semple.

In the former group is the statement of Marcus Tullius Cicero
(106-43 B.C.) referring to Leontine in Sicily, which reads: "On
an acre of Leontini ground about a medimnus of wheat is usually
sown, according to the regular and constant allowance of seed.
The land returns about eightfold on a fair average, but in an
extraordinarily favourable season, about tenfold," and that of
Marcus Terentius Varro (116-27 ? B.C.) who said, "the influence
of the kind of soil in a district is so great that the same seed yields
in some places ten-fold, in others fifteen-fold, as in several parts
of Etruria."

Of the second group of references, in addition to Strabo, may
be mentioned the Biblical comment, "Then Isaac sowed in that
land, and received in the same year an hundredfold." Herodotus
(484?-423 B.C), referring to Mesopotamia, wrote: "This
territory is of all that we know the best by far for producing
corn . . . it is so good that it returns as much as two-hundred-fold
for the average, and when it bears at its best it produces three hundred-
fold." He said, moreover, of Libya: "when it bears
best it produces a hundred-fold, but the land in the region of
Kinyps produces sometimes as much as three-hundred-fold."
Varro claimed that, "In Italy too, in the country about Sybaris,
they say that the usual yield is a hundred fold, and in Syria near
Gadara, and in Africa in Byzacium from one peek the return is
likewise a hundred pecks." In the parable of the sower, Jesus
spoke of certain good ground which brought forth thirtyfold,
sixtyfold, and even a hundredfold. Caius Plinius Secundus
(23-79 A.D.), better known as Pliny the Younger, stated that in
ordinary years land in Byzacium yielded one hundred and fiftyfold.
In another place he said that the Byzacium crop that
yields so remarkably is common wheat.

No references have been found to ancient yields so low as fourfold
and fivefold. Cicero mentioned a yield of eightfold to ten
fold in Sicily, and Varro tenfold to fifteenfold in Etruria. Against
these Strabo spoke of a yield of fiftyfold in Albania, and there
are two Scriptural references, separated by hundreds of years, to
yields of one hundredfold in Syria with additional mention of
sixtyfold and thirtyfold in the later instance. Varro mentioned a
yield of one hundredfold in Syria near Gadara and in Sybaris,
Italy and Byzacium, Africa. Herodotus said that Libya at its
best produced one hundredfold and mentioned a yield of two
hundredfold to three hundredfold in Mesopotamia and three
hundredfold in Kinyps in Africa, and Pliny cited a yield of one
hundred and fiftyfold for Byzacium.

There are only two references to small yields, and they refer
to land in Italy and Sicily; to yields of fiftyfold or more there are
ten extending over three continents, being mentioned by six
authors one Hebrew, two Greeks, two Romans, and one Hebrew
writing in Greek. It is plausible, therefore, to presume that
there is some truth back of the latter statements.

Data compiled by the Bureau of Agricultural Economics of the
United States Department of Agriculture show that the average
return from wheat in the United States for the period 1928-1933
was 862,645 bushels harvested from 85,126 bushels of seed, a
little less than tenfold, and from corn, 2,522,065 bushels from
17,408 bushels of seed, or more than one hundred and fortyfourfold.
These figures are well within the range of the more
extravagant ancient claims.

Apart from the spiritual implications of the sabbatical year,
the curtailing of grain production necessitated a septennial
reduction in the number of livestock which, by culling out the
unfit, resulted in improvement in the quality of the remaining
animals. Furthermore, the decrease in the quantity of grain
reduced the tendency of the people to trade with neighboring
countries and served to prevent the accumulation of unwieldy
wealth. The people thus became more nearly economically
self-sufficient and capable of meeting their own needs at all
times. The year of fallow was also of unquestioned value to the
land. Fallow is a preventive of exhaustion, weediness, and larvae, and in dry
regions a conserver of moisture.

---------------------------------------------

Studies in the Economics of the Bible by  Eli Ginzberg ,The Jewish
Quarterly Review, New Series, Vol. 22, No. 4 (Apr., 1932), pp. 343-408

The following is directly quoted from Ginzberg.

Leviticus 25.2

"In a later discussion of theories of land ownership we shall have
occasion to deal with the concept that the god or king is sole owner
of the land. This was a very widespread theory especially in Africa.
Cf. Breasted, Records of Ancient Egypt, Volume II- Lowie, Primitive
Society."

"In [Josephus's] Antiquities xiv 16-2 during one of Herod's wars it
is stated that the army was badly in need of provisions
for there was a famine in the land because it was a Sabbatical
Year."

Regarding Maccabees I-VI: 49:54 "Here is clearly
undeniable evidence that Jerusalem did make provision
for a seventh year. Likewise it assumes that the districts
around the city which supplied it with food must also have
observed the law to that degree at least that they did not
have any excess produce to sell."

"If the attempt be made to arrive at an estimate as to
what extent the agricultural part of the Sabbatical Laws
was observed, for there can be no doubt that it was not
entirely disregarded, one must not lose sight of the following
considerations:

1. There is good reason to assume that at the time of
the Second Temple, Palestine was no longer the ideal land
flowing with milk and honey. The ravages of war must
have left their marks.
2. The population during the last hundred years before
the destruction of the Temple has been estimated at an
almost unbelievably high figure.
3. It is without an historical analogy anywhere that a
country not specially productive, possessed of a large
population, with comparatively primitive methods of agriculture
could have been able to remain idle for almost two years. "In the seventh you eat
the harvest of that which
was sown in the sixth, and as you are not permitted to sow
that year, it must also suffice for the eighth."
4. There are no historical records to show tremendous
importations of grain, nor is there any way of conceiving
how these could have been paid for.

In view of the foregoing arguments one is forced to
admit that it is totally impossible even to dream that all
Palestinian Jewry could have observed the Sabbatical Year.
It does not seem unlikely in view of the frequent reference
to Jerusalem in connection with the observance of the law,
and its relationship to a discussion of war in both Maccabees
and Josephus that a small observant minority around the
capital city permitted part or perhaps all of their fields
to lie fallow during this year.
The discussion of the second part of the law pertaining
to the Sabbatical Year can be much shorter than the
question which was just considered. Historical evidence
of the remission of debts during the seventh year is entirely
lacking. The very conservative nature of Jewish Law
and the reluctance of any individual, even a Hillel, to
inaugurate changes, leaves one but a single alternative in
attempting to explain the Prosbul.

Disregard of the regulation must have been almost universal and to ease
the conscience of a few law-believing if not law-abiding
individuals, Hillel finally officially permitted the law to be
disregarded by a technicality. It would not be surprising
that once again a small minority actually observed the
law. But it is out of the question that the rank and file of
a commercial nation could have lived a normal economic
life with such an institution actively in force. And there is
no reason to assume that they led an abnormal existence."
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Continued Part 2